Dear All,
Many thanks for the discussion of this name. I think agreement has been reached on the definition and no further changes have been suggested, so I will accept this name and include it in the standard name table update which is scheduled for today. Full details of today's update will follow shortly.
Best wishes,
Alison
------
Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065
Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email: alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk
STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
R25, 2.22
Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CF-metadata [mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu] On Behalf
> Of Karl Taylor
> Sent: 08 March 2016 15:56
> To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and interface
> temperature
>
> Hi all,
>
> I, for one, would find Martin's wording an improvement and with the
> addition of "subskin" temperature complete (adding "subskin" to one of
> Martin's sentences):
>
> "More specific terms, namely sea_surface_skin_temperature,
> sea_surface_subskin_temperature, and surface_termperature are available
> for the skin, subskin, and interface temperature. respectively."
>
> thanks,
> Karl
>
> On 3/8/16 1:47 AM, martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Karl has raised an objection to the wording ".... not the skin ...." which was
> carried over from the current CF Standard Name definition for
> sea_surface_temperature in my suggested update. The update is intended
> to correct a currently erroneous reference to "surface_temperature" as skin
> temperature. Karl's objection, which also applies to the existing definition
> (and appears to date back to v1 fo the list), could be accomodated by a
> simple change:
> >
> > 'Sea surface temperature is usually abbreviated as "SST". It
> > is the temperature of sea water near the surface (including
> > the part under sea-ice, if any). More specific terms
> sea_surface_skin_temperature and surface_temperature
> > are available for the skin and interface
> > temperature respectively. For the temperature of sea water at a
> > particular depth or layer, a data variable of
> > sea_water_temperature with a vertical coordinate axis should
> > be used.'
> >
> > regards,
> > Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: CF-metadata [cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu] on behalf of cf-
> metadata-request at cgd.ucar.edu [cf-metadata-request at cgd.ucar.edu]
> > Sent: 08 March 2016 01:46
> > To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
> > Subject: CF-metadata Digest, Vol 155, Issue 13
> >
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> > cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
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> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Confusing skin temperature and interface temperature
> > (Karl Taylor)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 17:47:05 -0800
> > From: Karl Taylor <taylor13 at llnl.gov>
> > To: Peter Minnett <pminnett at rsmas.miami.edu>,
> > alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk, craig.donlon at esa.int
> > Cc: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu, kenneth.casey at noaa.gov,
> > Anne.Ocarroll at eumetsat.int, Edward.m.armstrong at jpl.nasa.gov
> > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and interface
> > temperature
> > Message-ID: <56DE2F19.2080302 at llnl.gov>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
> >
> > Dear Peter, Craig and all,
> >
> > For observations I am not arguing that all the different ocean
> > temperature definitions aren't needed. In describing observations I
> > understand that skin and surface temperature are not identical. My
> > statement was that by construction (almost all) current models assume
> > that the temperature is vertically uniform (i.e., the water is perfectly
> > mixed and homogeneous) throughout the upper most layer, so in *those*
> > models the statement that the "sea_surface_temperature" is "not the skin
> > or interface temperature" is *wrong*.
> >
> > The CF standard name description of "sea_surface_temperature" is
> > somewhat vague by design: "the temperature of sea water near the
> > surface". Because it is vague, it *could* defensibly be used to
> > represent any more precisely defined near-surface temperature, including
> > "sea_surface_skin_temperature", "sea_surface_subskin_temperature", or
> > "sea_surface_foundation_temperature".
> >
> > Even for observations it would be wrong to say "sea water near the
> > surface is not the skin temperature".
> >
> > Since skin temperature is near the surface and sea_surface_temperature
> > is vague, it might in fact be the same as skin temperature (e.g., if
> > sea_surface_temperature in fact recorded the conductive
> > diffusion-dominated sub-layer at a depth of approximately 10-20
> > micrometers below the air-sea interface). Again, usually in models,
> > sea_surface_temperature most emphatically does provide the model's
> best
> > (only!) estimate of skin temperature.
> >
> > If the description were changed to read:
> > "It is the temperature of sea water near the surface (including the part
> > under sea-ice, if any), and not necessarily the skin temperature".
> > I would be happy.
> >
> > Better yet, why not include in the discussion the following points:
> >
> > 1) surface temperature, sea_surface_temperature,
> > sea_surface_skin_temperature, sea_surface_subskin_temperature, and
> > sea_surface_foundation_temperature are all terms that might apply to the
> > temperature of sea water.
> > 2) When the temperature represents a horizontal spatial average,
> > surface_temperature represents the mean of the temperature over all
> > surface types in the domain, whereas the other temperatures do not.
> > 3) The sea_surface_temperature is imprecise because it represents a
> > near-surface temperature sampled within (or averaged over) the portion
> > of the column extending from the surface down to perhaps several
> > meters. In many ocean models, the temperature does not vary in that
> > portion of the column so sea_surface_temperature might be the
> > appropriate standard_name. Note that in this case, if part of the
> > horizontal domain represented by this temperature is under sea ice, the
> > temperature would not be the same as surface_temperature (which
> would
> > include contributions from the surface of the sea ice).
> > 4) The other CF standard names for ocean temperatures have more precise
> > definitions, and so those names should be used whenever they apply.
> >
> > best regards,
> > Karl
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/7/16 7:06 AM, Peter Minnett wrote:
> >> Dear Alison, Craig, Karl et al.,
> >>
> >> I have refrained from entering this discussion until now as Craig has
> >> made the points carefully and succinctly. But I think there's a
> >> fundamental issue at stake about what these definitions are for.
> >>
> >> My view is that definitions such as these are intended to provide a
> >> framework for communication that accurately but briefly represents our
> >> best understanding of the physics of the upper ocean and lower
> >> atmosphere. Thus, the definitions should not be constrained, or
> >> adapted, to reflect our current measurement or modelling capabilities
> >> as these, we expect, will improve with time. If, at some point in the
> >> future, we learn something new about how the thermal structure of the
> >> upper ocean behaves, then maybe the definitions will have to be
> >> revised, but for now I believe our definitions should be based on our
> >> understanding of the physical behavior of sea water near the air-sea
> >> interface. And this is what we tried to achieve with the GHRSST
> >> definitions.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> Peter J. Minnett
> >> Professor, Department of Ocean Sciences
> >> Speaker, RSMAS School Council.
> >> Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science
> >> University of Miami
> >> 4600 Rickenbacker Causeway
> >> Miami, FL 33149-1031, USA
> >>
> >> Chairman, Science Team of the Group for High Resolution Sea-Surface
> >> Temperature (GHRSST)
> >>
> >> Tel: +1 (305) 421-4104 Fax: +1 (305) 421-4696
> >> email: pminnett at rsmas.miami.edu
> >> http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/people/faculty-index/?p=peter-minnett
> >> https://www.ghrsst.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/7/2016 6:41 AM, alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk wrote:
> >>> Dear Craig and Karl,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks both for your comments. It is clear that we need some more
> >>> discussion on this topic. I will be making an update to the standard
> >>> name table tomorrow but will defer any changes to the sea surface
> >>> temperature names until we can all agree a position on this.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Alison
> >>>
> >>> ------
> >>>
> >>> Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065
> >>>
> >>> Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email:
> >>> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk <mailto:J.A.Pamment at rl.ac.uk>
> >>>
> >>> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
> >>>
> >>> R25, 2.22
> >>>
> >>> Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K.
> >>>
> >>> *From:*Craig Donlon [mailto:craig.donlon at esa.int]
> >>> *Sent:* 07 March 2016 02:18
> >>> *To:* Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
> >>> *Cc:* taylor13 at llnl.gov; cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu; Kenneth Casey;
> >>> Peter Minnett; Anne O'Caroll; Edward Armstrong
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and interface
> >>> temperature
> >>>
> >>> Dear Alison and Karl:
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the discussion here. The key issue is that model teams
> >>> need to be more precise as to which SST variable is being used. As
> >>> more advanced systems begin to fully couple ocean and atmosphere,
> >>> begin to perform radiance assimilation etc the need for each of the
> >>> different SST variables becomes readily apparent.
> >>>
> >>> I would not like to see any of the current CF SST definitions watered
> >>> down in the manner proposed. But rather to ask Karl to define what
> >>> he means by SST in the modelling context that he is working?
> >>>
> >>> Then we may hope to resolve the issue efficiently.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Craig
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> *** Sent from my iPhone ***
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Dr Craig Donlon
> >>>
> >>> Sentinel-3 Mission Scientist,
> >>>
> >>> Principal Scientist for Oceans and Ice
> >>>
> >>> European Space Agency/ESTEC
> >>>
> >>> Keplerlaan 1, 2201 AZ
> >>>
> >>> Noordwijk
> >>>
> >>> The Netherlands
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> e: craig.donlon at esa.int
> >>>
> >>> t: +31 (0)715 653687
> >>>
> >>> f: +31 (0)715 655675
> >>>
> >>> m: +31 (0)627 013244
> >>>
> >>> Skype: crazit
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 3 Mar 2016, at 19:53, <alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk
> >>> <mailto:alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk>> <alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk
> >>> <mailto:alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Dear Karl,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your comments on this. Clearly we need to get this
> >>> right before I make any changes in the standard name table.
> >>>
> >>> I recall that the sea surface skin, subskin and foundation
> >>> temperatures were introduced primarily to describe satellite
> >>> radiometer data because the existing sea_surface_temperature name
> >>> was too vague. I have the impression that modellers sometimes use
> >>> the word ?skin? as being synonymous with the interface at the
> >>> bottom of the atmosphere and I think that was probably the
> >>> intention behind its use in the current definition. By contrast,
> >>> the observational community have a very specific definition for
> >>> the sea skin: ?the conductive diffusion-dominated sub-layer at a
> >>> depth of approximately 10 - 20 micrometers below the air-sea
> >>> interface?. So I think there is scope for some confusion here
> >>> since the more specific sea surface temperature names were
> >>> introduced.
> >>>
> >>> As far as standard name definitions are concerned, the main thing
> >>> is to ensure we provide clear guidance as to when a particular
> >>> name should be used and to explain the relationships between
> >>> similar names. I take your point that some models may be
> >>> deliberately formulated to have sea_surface_temperature (by which
> >>> I assume you mean the top layer of the model) the same as the
> >>> interface temperature. I assume you would still label it with a
> >>> standard name of sea_surface_temperature, even though in this
> >>> case it would be directly comparable with a variable with
> >>> standard name surface_temperature and we should probably explain
> >>> that in the definition.
> >>>
> >>> Do models ever output variables that you would actually want
> >>> label as ?skin?, ?subskin? or ?foundation? temperatures (as
> >>> defined in the existing standard names)? If not, then perhaps it
> >>> is best to simply note in the definition that the other names
> >>> exist and that they have very specific definitions. This avoids
> >>> the issue around the word ?skin?.
> >>>
> >>> These points would then lead to a definition something like the
> >>> following:
> >>>
> >>> ?Sea surface temperature is usually abbreviated as "SST". It is
> >>> the temperature of sea water near the surface (including the part
> >>> under sea-ice, if any), and is not necessarily the same as the
> >>> interface temperature at the bottom of the atmosphere, whose
> >>> standard name is surface_temperature. Some models are formulated
> >>> such that sea_surface_temperature and surface_temperature are the
> >>> same in ice free sea areas. The standard names
> >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature, sea_surface_subskin_temperature
> and
> >>> sea_surface_foundation_temperature can be used to describe the
> >>> temperature in specific layers close to the sea surface and are
> >>> often used to describe satellite observations. For the
> >>> temperature of sea water at a particular depth or layer, a
> >>> standard name of sea_water_temperature with a vertical coordinate
> >>> axis should be used.?
> >>>
> >>> Does that sound OK? Does it include all the necessary information?
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Alison
> >>>
> >>> ------
> >>>
> >>> Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065
> >>>
> >>> Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email:
> >>> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk <mailto:J.A.Pamment at rl.ac.uk>
> >>>
> >>> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
> >>>
> >>> R25, 2.22
> >>>
> >>> Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K.
> >>>
> >>> *From:*CF-metadata [mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu]
> *On
> >>> Behalf Of *Karl Taylor
> >>> *Sent:* 02 March 2016 20:26
> >>> *To:* cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and
> >>> interface temperature
> >>>
> >>> Dear Alison and all,
> >>>
> >>> For "sea_surface_temperature", there is a problem stating
> >>> definitively that it is "not the skin or interface temperature".
> >>> In most models the skin and interface temperatures over ice-free
> >>> (i.e., open) ocean are indeed the same as sea_surface_temperature
> >>> (by construction). I think it would be more accurate (and less
> >>> misleading) to say it is "not *necessarily* the skin or interface
> >>> temperature". You could also add to the list
> >>> "sea_surface_foundation_temperature" here because in models it
> >>> too is often the same as sea_surface_temperature". Models are
> >>> evolving, so this might not indefinitely be the case.
> >>>
> >>> thanks,
> >>> Karl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 3/2/16 9:40 AM,
> >>> <mailto:alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk>alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Dear Martin, All,
> >>>
> >>> No objections have been received to the proposed definition
> >>> change and it is now accepted for publication in the standard
> >>> name table.
> >>>
> >>> The name will in future appear as:
> >>>
> >>> sea_surface_temperature (canonical units: K)
> >>>
> >>> ?Sea surface temperature is usually abbreviated as "SST". It
> >>> is the temperature of sea water near the surface (including
> >>> the part under sea-ice, if any), not the skin or interface
> >>> temperature, whose standard names are
> >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature and surface_temperature,
> >>> respectively. For the temperature of sea water at a
> >>> particular depth or layer, a data variable of
> >>> sea_water_temperature with a vertical coordinate axis should
> >>> be used.?
> >>>
> >>> In response to Martin?s proposal I received an email from
> >>> Craig Donlon (original proposer of many of the current
> >>> sea_surface_X_temperature names). Craig and his team support
> >>> the Martin?s proposal and additionally point out an error
> >>> that occurs in the definition of the following names:
> >>>
> >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature
> >>>
> >>> sea_surface_subskin_temperature
> >>>
> >>> in which the first sentence reads ?The surface called
> >>> "surface" means the lower boundary of the atmosphere? even
> >>> though the temperatures are not in fact measured at the
> >>> sea-air boundary. The suggestion is to delete the initial
> >>> sentence from the definitions. I note also that a similar
> >>> situation currently exists with the standard name
> >>> sea_surface_foundation_temperature even though that
> >>> temperature generally refers to a depth of 1 ? 5 m below the
> >>> sea surface.
> >>>
> >>> I agree with Craig that the sentence should be deleted. I
> >>> think it was probably included by accident because most
> >>> ?surface? standard names do indeed refer to the interface
> >>> between the bottom of the atmosphere and whatever lies
> >>> beneath. I plan to remove the sentence from the definitions
> >>> of these three names at the next standard name table update
> >>> unless any objections are received in the meantime.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Alison
> >>>
> >>> ------
> >>>
> >>> Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065
> >>>
> >>> Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email:
> >>> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk <mailto:J.A.Pamment at rl.ac.uk>
> >>>
> >>> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
> >>>
> >>> R25, 2.22
> >>>
> >>> Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K.
> >>>
> >>> *From:*Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
> >>> *Sent:* 03 February 2016 15:32
> >>> *To:* Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP);
> >>> cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> >>> *Subject:* RE: Confusing skin temperature and interface
> >>> temperature
> >>>
> >>> Dear Martin,
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for pointing this out. I agree that since the
> >>> introduction of the very precisely defined
> >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature name, the definition of the more
> >>> generic name is confusing. I agree with your suggested
> >>> amendment and unless anyone objects within the next seven
> >>> days the change will be accepted and added at the next update
> >>> of the standard name table.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Alison
> >>>
> >>> *From:*Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
> >>> *Sent:* 02 February 2016 16:07
> >>> *To:*
> >>> <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu;
> >>> Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
> >>> *Subject:* Confusing skin temperature and interface temperature
> >>>
> >>> Hello All,
> >>>
> >>> The CF Standard Name sea_surface_temperature includes the
> >>> statement that it is "./... not the skin temperature, whose
> >>> standard name is surface_temperature/". The last phrase here
> >>> is incorrect: the standard name of the skin temperature
> >>> is/sea_surface_skin_temperature/, not /surface_temperature/.
> >>> Can the definition be modified to read ".. /not the skin or
> >>> interface temperature, whose standard names are
> >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature and surface_temperature
> >>> respectively/"?
> >>>
> >>> regards,
> >>> Martin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> CF-metadata mailing list
> >>>
> >>> CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> >>>
> >>> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
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