Hi all,
I, for one, would find Martin's wording an improvement and with the
addition of "subskin" temperature complete (adding "subskin" to one of
Martin's sentences):
"More specific terms, namely sea_surface_skin_temperature,
sea_surface_subskin_temperature, and surface_termperature are available
for the skin, subskin, and interface temperature. respectively."
thanks,
Karl
On 3/8/16 1:47 AM, martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Karl has raised an objection to the wording ".... not the skin ...." which was carried over from the current CF Standard Name definition for sea_surface_temperature in my suggested update. The update is intended to correct a currently erroneous reference to "surface_temperature" as skin temperature. Karl's objection, which also applies to the existing definition (and appears to date back to v1 fo the list), could be accomodated by a simple change:
>
> ?Sea surface temperature is usually abbreviated as "SST". It
> is the temperature of sea water near the surface (including
> the part under sea-ice, if any). More specific terms sea_surface_skin_temperature and surface_temperature
> are available for the skin and interface
> temperature respectively. For the temperature of sea water at a
> particular depth or layer, a data variable of
> sea_water_temperature with a vertical coordinate axis should
> be used.?
>
> regards,
> Martin
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: CF-metadata [cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu] on behalf of cf-metadata-request at cgd.ucar.edu [cf-metadata-request at cgd.ucar.edu]
> Sent: 08 March 2016 01:46
> To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
> Subject: CF-metadata Digest, Vol 155, Issue 13
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Confusing skin temperature and interface temperature
> (Karl Taylor)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 17:47:05 -0800
> From: Karl Taylor <taylor13 at llnl.gov>
> To: Peter Minnett <pminnett at rsmas.miami.edu>,
> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk, craig.donlon at esa.int
> Cc: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu, kenneth.casey at noaa.gov,
> Anne.Ocarroll at eumetsat.int, Edward.m.armstrong at jpl.nasa.gov
> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and interface
> temperature
> Message-ID: <56DE2F19.2080302 at llnl.gov>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Dear Peter, Craig and all,
>
> For observations I am not arguing that all the different ocean
> temperature definitions aren't needed. In describing observations I
> understand that skin and surface temperature are not identical. My
> statement was that by construction (almost all) current models assume
> that the temperature is vertically uniform (i.e., the water is perfectly
> mixed and homogeneous) throughout the upper most layer, so in *those*
> models the statement that the "sea_surface_temperature" is "not the skin
> or interface temperature" is *wrong*.
>
> The CF standard name description of "sea_surface_temperature" is
> somewhat vague by design: "the temperature of sea water near the
> surface". Because it is vague, it *could* defensibly be used to
> represent any more precisely defined near-surface temperature, including
> "sea_surface_skin_temperature", "sea_surface_subskin_temperature", or
> "sea_surface_foundation_temperature".
>
> Even for observations it would be wrong to say "sea water near the
> surface is not the skin temperature".
>
> Since skin temperature is near the surface and sea_surface_temperature
> is vague, it might in fact be the same as skin temperature (e.g., if
> sea_surface_temperature in fact recorded the conductive
> diffusion-dominated sub-layer at a depth of approximately 10-20
> micrometers below the air-sea interface). Again, usually in models,
> sea_surface_temperature most emphatically does provide the model's best
> (only!) estimate of skin temperature.
>
> If the description were changed to read:
> "It is the temperature of sea water near the surface (including the part
> under sea-ice, if any), and not necessarily the skin temperature".
> I would be happy.
>
> Better yet, why not include in the discussion the following points:
>
> 1) surface temperature, sea_surface_temperature,
> sea_surface_skin_temperature, sea_surface_subskin_temperature, and
> sea_surface_foundation_temperature are all terms that might apply to the
> temperature of sea water.
> 2) When the temperature represents a horizontal spatial average,
> surface_temperature represents the mean of the temperature over all
> surface types in the domain, whereas the other temperatures do not.
> 3) The sea_surface_temperature is imprecise because it represents a
> near-surface temperature sampled within (or averaged over) the portion
> of the column extending from the surface down to perhaps several
> meters. In many ocean models, the temperature does not vary in that
> portion of the column so sea_surface_temperature might be the
> appropriate standard_name. Note that in this case, if part of the
> horizontal domain represented by this temperature is under sea ice, the
> temperature would not be the same as surface_temperature (which would
> include contributions from the surface of the sea ice).
> 4) The other CF standard names for ocean temperatures have more precise
> definitions, and so those names should be used whenever they apply.
>
> best regards,
> Karl
>
>
>
> On 3/7/16 7:06 AM, Peter Minnett wrote:
>> Dear Alison, Craig, Karl et al.,
>>
>> I have refrained from entering this discussion until now as Craig has
>> made the points carefully and succinctly. But I think there's a
>> fundamental issue at stake about what these definitions are for.
>>
>> My view is that definitions such as these are intended to provide a
>> framework for communication that accurately but briefly represents our
>> best understanding of the physics of the upper ocean and lower
>> atmosphere. Thus, the definitions should not be constrained, or
>> adapted, to reflect our current measurement or modelling capabilities
>> as these, we expect, will improve with time. If, at some point in the
>> future, we learn something new about how the thermal structure of the
>> upper ocean behaves, then maybe the definitions will have to be
>> revised, but for now I believe our definitions should be based on our
>> understanding of the physical behavior of sea water near the air-sea
>> interface. And this is what we tried to achieve with the GHRSST
>> definitions.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Peter J. Minnett
>> Professor, Department of Ocean Sciences
>> Speaker, RSMAS School Council.
>> Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science
>> University of Miami
>> 4600 Rickenbacker Causeway
>> Miami, FL 33149-1031, USA
>>
>> Chairman, Science Team of the Group for High Resolution Sea-Surface
>> Temperature (GHRSST)
>>
>> Tel: +1 (305) 421-4104 Fax: +1 (305) 421-4696
>> email: pminnett at rsmas.miami.edu
>> http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/people/faculty-index/?p=peter-minnett
>> https://www.ghrsst.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/7/2016 6:41 AM, alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk wrote:
>>> Dear Craig and Karl,
>>>
>>> Thanks both for your comments. It is clear that we need some more
>>> discussion on this topic. I will be making an update to the standard
>>> name table tomorrow but will defer any changes to the sea surface
>>> temperature names until we can all agree a position on this.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Alison
>>>
>>> ------
>>>
>>> Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065
>>>
>>> Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email:
>>> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk <mailto:J.A.Pamment at rl.ac.uk>
>>>
>>> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
>>>
>>> R25, 2.22
>>>
>>> Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K.
>>>
>>> *From:*Craig Donlon [mailto:craig.donlon at esa.int]
>>> *Sent:* 07 March 2016 02:18
>>> *To:* Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
>>> *Cc:* taylor13 at llnl.gov; cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu; Kenneth Casey;
>>> Peter Minnett; Anne O'Caroll; Edward Armstrong
>>> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and interface
>>> temperature
>>>
>>> Dear Alison and Karl:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the discussion here. The key issue is that model teams
>>> need to be more precise as to which SST variable is being used. As
>>> more advanced systems begin to fully couple ocean and atmosphere,
>>> begin to perform radiance assimilation etc the need for each of the
>>> different SST variables becomes readily apparent.
>>>
>>> I would not like to see any of the current CF SST definitions watered
>>> down in the manner proposed. But rather to ask Karl to define what
>>> he means by SST in the modelling context that he is working?
>>>
>>> Then we may hope to resolve the issue efficiently.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *** Sent from my iPhone ***
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Dr Craig Donlon
>>>
>>> Sentinel-3 Mission Scientist,
>>>
>>> Principal Scientist for Oceans and Ice
>>>
>>> European Space Agency/ESTEC
>>>
>>> Keplerlaan 1, 2201 AZ
>>>
>>> Noordwijk
>>>
>>> The Netherlands
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> e: craig.donlon at esa.int
>>>
>>> t: +31 (0)715 653687
>>>
>>> f: +31 (0)715 655675
>>>
>>> m: +31 (0)627 013244
>>>
>>> Skype: crazit
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3 Mar 2016, at 19:53, <alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk
>>> <mailto:alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk>> <alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk
>>> <mailto:alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Karl,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your comments on this. Clearly we need to get this
>>> right before I make any changes in the standard name table.
>>>
>>> I recall that the sea surface skin, subskin and foundation
>>> temperatures were introduced primarily to describe satellite
>>> radiometer data because the existing sea_surface_temperature name
>>> was too vague. I have the impression that modellers sometimes use
>>> the word ?skin? as being synonymous with the interface at the
>>> bottom of the atmosphere and I think that was probably the
>>> intention behind its use in the current definition. By contrast,
>>> the observational community have a very specific definition for
>>> the sea skin: ?the conductive diffusion-dominated sub-layer at a
>>> depth of approximately 10 - 20 micrometers below the air-sea
>>> interface?. So I think there is scope for some confusion here
>>> since the more specific sea surface temperature names were
>>> introduced.
>>>
>>> As far as standard name definitions are concerned, the main thing
>>> is to ensure we provide clear guidance as to when a particular
>>> name should be used and to explain the relationships between
>>> similar names. I take your point that some models may be
>>> deliberately formulated to have sea_surface_temperature (by which
>>> I assume you mean the top layer of the model) the same as the
>>> interface temperature. I assume you would still label it with a
>>> standard name of sea_surface_temperature, even though in this
>>> case it would be directly comparable with a variable with
>>> standard name surface_temperature and we should probably explain
>>> that in the definition.
>>>
>>> Do models ever output variables that you would actually want
>>> label as ?skin?, ?subskin? or ?foundation? temperatures (as
>>> defined in the existing standard names)? If not, then perhaps it
>>> is best to simply note in the definition that the other names
>>> exist and that they have very specific definitions. This avoids
>>> the issue around the word ?skin?.
>>>
>>> These points would then lead to a definition something like the
>>> following:
>>>
>>> ?Sea surface temperature is usually abbreviated as "SST". It is
>>> the temperature of sea water near the surface (including the part
>>> under sea-ice, if any), and is not necessarily the same as the
>>> interface temperature at the bottom of the atmosphere, whose
>>> standard name is surface_temperature. Some models are formulated
>>> such that sea_surface_temperature and surface_temperature are the
>>> same in ice free sea areas. The standard names
>>> sea_surface_skin_temperature, sea_surface_subskin_temperature and
>>> sea_surface_foundation_temperature can be used to describe the
>>> temperature in specific layers close to the sea surface and are
>>> often used to describe satellite observations. For the
>>> temperature of sea water at a particular depth or layer, a
>>> standard name of sea_water_temperature with a vertical coordinate
>>> axis should be used.?
>>>
>>> Does that sound OK? Does it include all the necessary information?
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Alison
>>>
>>> ------
>>>
>>> Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065
>>>
>>> Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email:
>>> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk <mailto:J.A.Pamment at rl.ac.uk>
>>>
>>> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
>>>
>>> R25, 2.22
>>>
>>> Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K.
>>>
>>> *From:*CF-metadata [mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Karl Taylor
>>> *Sent:* 02 March 2016 20:26
>>> *To:* cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and
>>> interface temperature
>>>
>>> Dear Alison and all,
>>>
>>> For "sea_surface_temperature", there is a problem stating
>>> definitively that it is "not the skin or interface temperature".
>>> In most models the skin and interface temperatures over ice-free
>>> (i.e., open) ocean are indeed the same as sea_surface_temperature
>>> (by construction). I think it would be more accurate (and less
>>> misleading) to say it is "not *necessarily* the skin or interface
>>> temperature". You could also add to the list
>>> "sea_surface_foundation_temperature" here because in models it
>>> too is often the same as sea_surface_temperature". Models are
>>> evolving, so this might not indefinitely be the case.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> Karl
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/2/16 9:40 AM,
>>> <mailto:alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk>alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Martin, All,
>>>
>>> No objections have been received to the proposed definition
>>> change and it is now accepted for publication in the standard
>>> name table.
>>>
>>> The name will in future appear as:
>>>
>>> sea_surface_temperature (canonical units: K)
>>>
>>> ?Sea surface temperature is usually abbreviated as "SST". It
>>> is the temperature of sea water near the surface (including
>>> the part under sea-ice, if any), not the skin or interface
>>> temperature, whose standard names are
>>> sea_surface_skin_temperature and surface_temperature,
>>> respectively. For the temperature of sea water at a
>>> particular depth or layer, a data variable of
>>> sea_water_temperature with a vertical coordinate axis should
>>> be used.?
>>>
>>> In response to Martin?s proposal I received an email from
>>> Craig Donlon (original proposer of many of the current
>>> sea_surface_X_temperature names). Craig and his team support
>>> the Martin?s proposal and additionally point out an error
>>> that occurs in the definition of the following names:
>>>
>>> sea_surface_skin_temperature
>>>
>>> sea_surface_subskin_temperature
>>>
>>> in which the first sentence reads ?The surface called
>>> "surface" means the lower boundary of the atmosphere? even
>>> though the temperatures are not in fact measured at the
>>> sea-air boundary. The suggestion is to delete the initial
>>> sentence from the definitions. I note also that a similar
>>> situation currently exists with the standard name
>>> sea_surface_foundation_temperature even though that
>>> temperature generally refers to a depth of 1 ? 5 m below the
>>> sea surface.
>>>
>>> I agree with Craig that the sentence should be deleted. I
>>> think it was probably included by accident because most
>>> ?surface? standard names do indeed refer to the interface
>>> between the bottom of the atmosphere and whatever lies
>>> beneath. I plan to remove the sentence from the definitions
>>> of these three names at the next standard name table update
>>> unless any objections are received in the meantime.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Alison
>>>
>>> ------
>>>
>>> Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065
>>>
>>> Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email:
>>> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk <mailto:J.A.Pamment at rl.ac.uk>
>>>
>>> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
>>>
>>> R25, 2.22
>>>
>>> Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K.
>>>
>>> *From:*Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
>>> *Sent:* 03 February 2016 15:32
>>> *To:* Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP);
>>> cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
>>> *Subject:* RE: Confusing skin temperature and interface
>>> temperature
>>>
>>> Dear Martin,
>>>
>>> Thank you for pointing this out. I agree that since the
>>> introduction of the very precisely defined
>>> sea_surface_skin_temperature name, the definition of the more
>>> generic name is confusing. I agree with your suggested
>>> amendment and unless anyone objects within the next seven
>>> days the change will be accepted and added at the next update
>>> of the standard name table.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Alison
>>>
>>> *From:*Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
>>> *Sent:* 02 February 2016 16:07
>>> *To:*
>>> <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu;
>>> Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
>>> *Subject:* Confusing skin temperature and interface temperature
>>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> The CF Standard Name sea_surface_temperature includes the
>>> statement that it is "./... not the skin temperature, whose
>>> standard name is surface_temperature/". The last phrase here
>>> is incorrect: the standard name of the skin temperature
>>> is/sea_surface_skin_temperature/, not /surface_temperature/.
>>> Can the definition be modified to read ".. /not the skin or
>>> interface temperature, whose standard names are
>>> sea_surface_skin_temperature and surface_temperature
>>> respectively/"?
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> CF-metadata mailing list
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