Roy,
I am specifically asking for platform_sway and platform_surge.
Thanks,
Ken
On 2018-8-6 10:02, Lowry, Roy K. wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
>
> One other thing to think on is?the set of 'rate' Standard Names, or
> are you happy with my prefix from the yaw example added on to your
> definitions.
>
>
> And finally are we intending to propose platform_sway and
> platform_surge as new Standard Names in addition to platform_heave
> which started this discussion even though nobody has specifically
> asked for them?
>
>
> Cheers, Roy.
>
>
> I have now retired but will continue to be active through an Emeritus
> Fellowship using this e-mail address.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* CF-metadata <cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of
> Jim Biard <jbiard at cicsnc.org>
> *Sent:* 06 August 2018 16:47
> *To:* CF Metadata List; Jonathan Gregory
> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave
> Hi.
>
> There are other standard names that call for a separate attribute or
> variable that provides context. The attributes (at the moment) are all
> standard CF attributes (cell_methods, flag_meanings, comment, etc).
> I'd love to get feedback from the community about whether or not a
> directionality attribute would need to described as a "standard" CF
> attribute.
>
> I'll be glad to rework the definitions to make them
> directionality-agnostic when I get back next week.
>
> Grace and peace,
>
> Jim
>
> CICS-NC
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> *Jim Biard*
> *Research Scholar*
> Cooperative Institute for Climate and Satellites NC
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cicsnc.org_&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=dULLQNwecP3zJLjL5xmrBdaMifj8CGxHQVPkkTbgRRs&e=>
> North Carolina State University
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ncsu.edu_&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=pc9bIRFh1dbwzMr31a0uZZsN9rtfZQW3CJ6up_ZoctU&e=>
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> /formerly NOAA?s National Climatic Data Center/
> 151 Patton Ave, Asheville, NC 28801
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> o: +1 828 271 4900
>
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>
> /
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 3:45 AM Lowry, Roy K. <rkl at bodc.ac.uk
> <mailto:rkl at bodc.ac.uk>> wrote:
>
> Dear Nan,
>
>
> So are we returning to the wording in Alison's original
> definitions (e.g. yaw normally clockwise facing front) before
> you?with my support asked for the ambiguity be removed? Or do you
> want to go even further with no mention of sign convention at all?
>
>
> I would also question whether a Standard Name definition is the
> place to specify the mechanism to be used for the description of a
> sign convention as it has wider implications?than the parameters
> currently under discussion. Would it not be more appropriate for
> this to be considered an enhancement to CF and written into the
> Conventions document? If so, it should it not?be the subject of a
> GitHub ticket?
>
>
> Cheers, Roy.
>
>
> I have now retired but will continue to be active through an
> Emeritus Fellowship using this e-mail address.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* CF-metadata <cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu
> <mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu>> on behalf of Nan
> Galbraith <ngalbraith at whoi.edu <mailto:ngalbraith at whoi.edu>>
> *Sent:* 04 August 2018 02:18
> *To:* cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave
> Thanks, Jim.
>
> > change the definitions to avoid declaring which direction is
> > positive, make the direction attribute optional, and say that users
> > should be careful about assuming the directionality for variables
> > lacking the attribute.
>
> This is the approach I'd prefer as well.
>
> - Nan
>
>
> Quoting Jim Biard <jbiard at cicsnc.org <mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>>:
>
> > Nan,
> >
> > I didn't go to the lengths of making new regularized definitions
> > before I wrote that list. I was thinking in terms of making the
> > clockwise/anticlockwise call based on the right hand rule and the
> > unit vector for each axis. For roll, for example, if the X unit
> > vector faces forward, the "right side down" roll is actually
> > anticlockwise - that is, it is in the direction that your right
> hand
> > fingers curl if you grab the unit vector in your hand with your
> > thumb pointing in the same direction as the unit vector. That
> > definition is independent of observer location and look direction.
> > My definitions for all the direction values are following that same
> > convention.
> >
> > Accurate knowledge of the sign of roll, pitch, and yaw is critical
> > in the satellite and aircraft world. The look angles for remote
> > sensors are affected by these values. I get it that not all systems
> > care about the signed values, so that reason and for backward
> > compatibility I suggested that we could change the definitions to
> > avoid declaring which direction is positive, make the direction
> > attribute optional, and say that users should be careful about
> > assuming the directionality for variables lacking the attribute.
> >
> > Grace and peace,
> >
> > Jim
> >>
> >> On 8/3/18 2:03 PM, Nan Galbraith wrote:
> >>> Hi Roy -
> >>>
> >>> Yes,? I've been looking at that page quite a bit lately, and I
> >>> think it backs up
> >>> what I'm saying.
> >>>
> >>> If you are standing on that fuselage (may we never), facing
> >>> forward, the red roll
> >>> arrow is showing a clockwise motion, with right side moving
> >>> downward. If you
> >>> were facing aft, the arrow would be anticlockwise, but the
> right side would
> >>> be rising.
> >>>
> >>> So, 'roll: "clockwise" for positive right side up and
> >>> "anticlockwise" for positive right
> >>> side down'??? - is backwards in either case. I'm not disputing
> >>> anything except
> >>> the term 'clockwise'? in this phrase.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks - Nan
> >>>
> >>> On 8/3/18 1:43 PM, Lowry, Roy K. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Nan,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Whilst I appreciate the limitations of Wikipedia as an
> >>>> authoritative source have a look at
> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_principal_axes
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Aircraft-5Fprincipal-5Faxes&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=vsq2M6-NEvFLhjrrcxFzQzHADYPYRymmMIyRAD7Eri8&e=>
>
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Aircraft-5Fprincipal-5Faxes&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=vsq2M6-NEvFLhjrrcxFzQzHADYPYRymmMIyRAD7Eri8&e=>
>
> Aircraft principal axes - Wikipedia
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Aircraft-5Fprincipal-5Faxes&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=vsq2M6-NEvFLhjrrcxFzQzHADYPYRymmMIyRAD7Eri8&e=>
> en.wikipedia.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__en.wikipedia.org&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=F2oneKZNdTKs8-R1zyCWTiC3MJEk-b1hTZ2iCfnPse4&e=>
> Normal axis, or yaw axis ? an axis drawn from top to bottom, and
> perpendicular to the other two axes.Parallel to the fuselage
> station.; Transverse axis, lateral axis, or pitch axis ? an axis
> running from the pilot's left to right in piloted aircraft, and
> parallel to the wings of a winged aircraft.
>
>
>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers, Roy.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>>> *From:* Nan Galbraith <ngalbraith at whoi.edu
> <mailto:ngalbraith at whoi.edu>>
> >>>> *Sent:* 03 August 2018 18:23
> >>>> *To:* Jim Biard; Lowry, Roy K.; kkehoe at ou.edu
> <mailto:kkehoe at ou.edu>
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave (pitch, roll)
> >>>> Hi Jim, Roy and Ken -
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm skipping the list because this is a minor point and ...
> and I may be
> >>>> missing
> >>>> something obvious.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's hard not to think of these terms as they apply to ships.
> In that
> >>>> environment,
> >>>> we'd use the convention of the observer facing forward;
> therefore roll
> >>>> would be
> >>>> clockwise if the right side were going down, not up. I'm
> supposing that
> >>>> would
> >>>> also apply to aircraft.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers - Nan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> If we declare that X is positive forward, that Y is positive
> left,
> >>>>> that Z is positive up, and that we use the right-hand rule
> for angle
> >>>>> directions, the direction attribute values could be:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ? * roll: "clockwise" for positive right side up and
> "anticlockwise"
> >>>>> ??? for positive right side down.
> >>>>> ? * pitch: "clockwise" for positive nose up and
> "anticlockwise" for
> >>>>> ??? positive nose down.
> >>>>> ? * yaw: "clockwise" for positive nose right and
> "anticlockwise" for
> >>>>> ??? positive nose left.
> >>>>> ? * surge: "positive" for positive forward and "negative" for
> >>>>> ??? positive backward.
> >>>>> ? * sway: "positive" for positive left and "negative" for
> positive right.
> >>>>> ? * heave: "positive" for positive up and "negative" for
> positive down.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>>>>>> >>>
> >>>>>>> *From:* CF-metadata <cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu
> <mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu>> on behalf of
> >>>>>>> Jim Biard <jbiard at cicsnc.org <mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>>
> >>>>>>> *Sent:* 03 August 2018 15:41
> >>>>>>> *To:* cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
> <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I freely admit that I picked direction on sway
> arbitrarily. In my
> >>>>>>> experience, part of the variation that arises in the
> definitions of
> >>>>>>> the different motions arises from different thoughts about
> their
> >>>>>>> use, particularly whether someone is thinking the values
> are used to
> >>>>>>> transform into the platform body frame vs transform from
> it. Or
> >>>>>>> maybe they just aren't worrying about consistency. Like as
> not,
> >>>>>>> choices have often been made in attempts to make the
> values have the
> >>>>>>> signed-ness that felt right to people, and we can't keep to
> >>>>>>> conventions like the right hand rule and make it all work
> >>>>>>> consistently. We want a positive pitch to be nose up. We
> want a
> >>>>>>> positive yaw to be nose right. We want positive heave to
> be up. My
> >>>>>>> natural tendency is to think of "roll right" as positive
> and "sway
> >>>>>>> right" as positive, but that isn't what other people think of.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As I read what I wrote, I realize I didn't use a
> consistent approach
> >>>>>>> to position and look direction when assigning clockwise and
> >>>>>>> anticlockwise to roll, pitch, and yaw. I need to
> regularize that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Reading the Conventions about vertical coordinates, it
> says they
> >>>>>>> must all have a "positive" attribute with a value of "up"
> or "down".
> >>>>>>> I don't see a problem with having the definitions back off of
> >>>>>>> declaring a specific directionality and add an attribute
> declaring
> >>>>>>> directionality. We could call the attribute "direction" so
> as not to
> >>>>>>> step on the "positive" attribute, and say that if the
> attribute is
> >>>>>>> not present that the user should not assume which
> direction is correct.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If we declare that X is positive forward, that Y is
> positive left,
> >>>>>>> that Z is positive up, and that we use the right-hand rule
> for angle
> >>>>>>> directions, the direction attribute values could be:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ? * roll: "clockwise" for positive right side up and
> "anticlockwise"
> >>>>>>> ??? for positive right side down.
> >>>>>>> ? * pitch: "clockwise" for positive nose up and
> "anticlockwise" for
> >>>>>>> ??? positive nose down.
> >>>>>>> ? * yaw: "clockwise" for positive nose right and
> "anticlockwise" for
> >>>>>>> ??? positive nose left.
> >>>>>>> ? * surge: "positive" for positive forward and "negative" for
> >>>>>>> ??? positive backward.
> >>>>>>> ? * sway: "positive" for positive left and "negative" for
> positive
> >>>>>>> right.
> >>>>>>> ? * heave: "positive" for positive up and "negative" for
> positive down.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> BTW, I'll be out until August 13.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Grace and peace,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jim
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> CICS-NC <http://www.cicsnc.org/
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> *Jim Biard*
> >> *Research Scholar*
> >> Cooperative Institute for Climate and Satellites NC
> <http://cicsnc.org/
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> >> /formerly NOAA?s National Climatic Data Center/
> >> 151 Patton Ave, Asheville, NC 28801
> >> e: jbiard at cicsnc.org <mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>
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> >> o: +1 828 271 4900
> >>
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> >>
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> >
> > --
> > CICS-NC <http://www.cicsnc.org/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cicsnc.org_&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=x34l51xPXmgH-aUwvSrR2s1BvnegDR9v5TUvmlkuC08&e=>>
> Visit us on
> > Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/cicsnc
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.facebook.com_cicsnc&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=ms-RsdZkI8VABhdzIF3uemXo55CtII0rsdo8p0EYXwM&e=>>
> *Jim Biard*
> > *Research Scholar*
> > Cooperative Institute for Climate and Satellites NC
> <http://cicsnc.org/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cicsnc.org_&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=dULLQNwecP3zJLjL5xmrBdaMifj8CGxHQVPkkTbgRRs&e=>>
> > North Carolina State University <http://ncsu.edu/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ncsu.edu_&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=pc9bIRFh1dbwzMr31a0uZZsN9rtfZQW3CJ6up_ZoctU&e=>>
> > NOAA National Centers for Environmental Information
> <http://ncdc.noaa.gov/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ncdc.noaa.gov_&d=DwMF-g&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=uVfoFv-LtZ2x4jvCcYtHX-YLw4uUnDgUjlQ0IOZ9PxQ&s=W7I_Xw3TkOaJnM-fY_w1EGSZp2wCuNP2eAzOeeh4MPM&e=>>
> > /formerly NOAA?s National Climatic Data Center/
> > 151 Patton Ave, Asheville, NC 28801
> > e: jbiard at cicsnc.org <mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>
> <mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>
> > o: +1 828 271 4900
> >
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--
Kenneth E. Kehoe
Research Associate - University of Oklahoma
Cooperative Institute for Mesoscale Meteorological Studies
ARM Climate Research Facility - Data Quality Office
e-mail: kkehoe at ou.edu | Office: 303-497-4754 | Cell: 405-826-0299
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