Dear Jonathan,
I appreciate that you haven't been following this debate so I thought I'd point out that the proposal is a mixture of new Standard Names and upgrades to definitions of existing Standard Names for pitch, roll and yaw. To my thinking whatever is done shouldn't change the semantics of the existing names.
Cheers, Roy.
I have now retired but will continue to be active through an Emeritus Fellowship using this e-mail address.
________________________________
From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of Jonathan Gregory <j.m.gregory at reading.ac.uk>
Sent: 31 August 2018 13:52
To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave
Dear all
I haven't been following this discussion, so please excuse me if I've missed
the point. I think you are suggesting introducing a new attribute to indicate
the positive sense of various new quantities for platform orientation - is
that right? To do that would not be consistent with other standard names, which
(where relevant) all have the positive sense indicate in the standard name
itself. That's why there are many pairs of standard names for upward/downward,
in particular. The reason for doing this is to make it impossible to name the
quantity without indicating its sign convention, whereas a separate attribute
can be omitted, and probably sometimes will. It also opens new possibilities
for getting things wrong, by putting illegal values in it.
Therefore I would argue for the same approach here, both because I think it's
less error-prone, and for consistency with other CF standard names. I'm sure
the objection occurs to you that this means more standard names. That's true,
but it's only twice as many, I believe, since each of the quantities has only
two possible senses.
Best wishes
Jonathan
----- Forwarded message from Kenneth Kehoe <kkehoe at ou.edu> -----
> Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:05:44 -0600
> From: Kenneth Kehoe <kkehoe at ou.edu>
> To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0)
> Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0
>
> I think we should keep things simple as Ethan suggests below. But
> since the proposed attribute "direction" is defined as indicating
> the positive direction we don't need to include the word positive.
>
> The terms would then be:
> roll: "right_side_up" and "right_side_down"
> pitch: "nose_up" and "nose_down"
> yaw: "nose_right" and "nose_left"
> surge: "forward" and "backward"
> sway: "left" and "right"
> heave: "up" and "down"
>
> It would be nice to be more explicit in the netCDF file and require
> less on the standard_name definition so I would suggest we use the
> original proposed attribute name of "positive_direction" with the
> above allowed values.
>
> Or if we don't want to add a new attribute we could use the existing
> "positive" attribute and expand its allowed use. I've proposed this
> in the past and it was decided to not expand the definition. I think
> the concern for not expanding positive was the requirement of only
> using that attribute on coordinate variables. For the coordinate
> variable the only allowable values are up and down. But for this use
> those values would only be attached to a variable, not a coordinate
> variable.
>
> Since we are creating an attribute to define the positive direction
> I would like to add radial definition of "toward" and "away". But I
> think we can simplify this a bit further. If we define the point of
> reference that is moving in the standard name then we don't need to
> put the point of reference in the positive (or direction or
> positive_direction) attribute. For example the pitch standard_name
> would indicate the location of reference of the nose. This would
> then reduce the list of possible options to:
>
> roll: "up" and "down"
> pitch: "up" and "down"
> yaw: "right" and "left"
> surge: "forward" and "backward"
> sway: "left" and "right"
> heave: "up" and "down"
>
> If we could use the current attribute of "positive" that has up and
> down already defined then we only need to to add "right", "left",
> "forward", "backward", "toward", "away".
>
> Easy!
>
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> On 2018-8-29 13:54, Ethan Davis wrote:
> >Hey Jim,
> >
> >How about removing one layer of terminology by using your
> >definitions for the allowed values of "direction":
> >
> >roll: "positive_right_side_up" and "positive_right_side_down".
> >pitch: "positive_nose_up" and "positive_nose_down".
> >yaw: "positive_nose_right" and "positive_nose_left".
> >surge: "positive_forward" and "positive_backward".
> >sway: "positive_left" and "positive_right".
> >heave: "positive_up" and "positive_down".
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Ethan
> >
> >On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:02 PM Jim Biard <jbiard at cicsnc.org
> ><mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > There are a variety of conventions for defining roll, pitch, and
> > yaw out there. This is why we are avoiding a specific one. Others
> > have searched existing datasets that are using earlier versions of
> > these standard names (or not using standard names) and found that
> > they don't all follow the same convention.
> >
> > Ethan,
> >
> > We purposely aren't answering that question directly because of
> > the issue above. I believe that I have consistently followed the
> > convention in which clockwise and anticlockwise are rotational
> > directions around a unit vector facing the observer, where the X
> > unit vector is in the nominally forward direction, the Z axis is
> > in the local up direction, and the Y axis unit vector is "Z cross
> > X", which forms a right-handed coordinate system. The terms are
> > meaningful and accurate using that convention, but the names could
> > be "alpha" and "beta" or "dog" and "cat" as long as they are used
> > correctly.
> >
> > This whole topic is fraught with competing conventions, so we are
> > attempting to avoid declaring that only one of them is valid, with
> > it's corresponding requirement that everyone follow that one sign
> > convention.
> >
> > In fact, we could reword things to remove naming the axes X, Y,
> > and Z, and perhaps we should. I know of satellite platforms that
> > define their Y axis unit vector as pointing forward and the Z axis
> > unit vector as pointing down.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Grace and peace,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > On 8/29/18 1:32 PM, John Helly wrote:
> >> Perhaps one should refer to the discipline of hydrostatics for
> >> help with this? This paper, pulled from a quick search, has a
> >> diagram referencing the platforms' frame of reference with
> >> respect to its center of gravity. Sorry if this comment is
> >> retrograde.
> >>
> >> https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mpe/2010/934714/
> >> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.hindawi.com_journals_mpe_2010_934714_&d=DwMFaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=V30oufQn7eoscpwV3fkPj-Rzw4SsBmtwWpTQ8PZaDgQ&s=NV5FW-iZ7Ml9G3tz6Dg4tXjiM7w1mDsctSx_tWbiTmc&e=>
> >>
> >> J.
> >>
> >> On 8/29/18 10:09, Ethan Davis wrote:
> >>> Hi Jim, all,
> >>>
> >>> I'm a bit confused by the "clockwise" and "anticlockwise". You
> >>> mention the orientation of the observer but not the
> >>> location/orientation of the clock. My assumptions (not sure why)
> >>> for the clock: for roll, the observer (who is facing forward)
> >>> would be facing the clock; for pitch, the observer would look
> >>> right to see the clock; and for yaw, the observer would look
> >>> down to see the clock. That works for your definitions of pitch
> >>> and yaw, but is backwards for roll.
> >>>
> >>> Does "clockwise" add, in some way, another degree of freedom to
> >>> the definition? Does that degree of freedom need to be nailed
> >>> down in the definitions? Or other terms used instead? I don't
> >>> have any good suggestions other than "positive" and "negative".
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Ethan
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:03 AM Jim Biard <jbiard at cicsnc.org
> >>> <mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I've finally gotten back to this topic! The definitions
> >>> below call out an attribute named "direction" that is used
> >>> to specify the direction for positive values of the
> >>> different quantities. We may need to add a definition for
> >>> the attribute to the Conventions. The values and meanings
> >>> for the direction attribute are:
> >>>
> >>> roll: "clockwise" for positive right side up and
> >>> "anticlockwise" for positive right side down.
> >>> pitch: "clockwise" for positive nose up and "anticlockwise"
> >>> for positive nose down.
> >>> yaw: "clockwise" for positive nose right and "anticlockwise"
> >>> for positive nose left.
> >>> surge: "positive" for positive forward and "negative" for
> >>> positive backward.
> >>> sway: "positive" for positive left and "negative" for
> >>> positive right.
> >>> heave: "positive" for positive up and "negative" for
> >>> positive down.
> >>>
> >>> And here are the standard name definitions:
> >>>
> >>> platform_roll: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Roll is a rotation about
> >>> an axis (the X axis) that is perpendicular to the local
> >>> vertical axis (the Z axis) and is coplanar with the nominal
> >>> forward motion direction of the platform. Roll is relative
> >>> to the ?at rest? rotation of the platform with respect to
> >>> the X axis. The ?at rest? rotation of the platform may
> >>> change over time. The direction for positive values of roll
> >>> is specified by an attribute named direction. The value of
> >>> the direction attribute is "clockwise" if positive values of
> >>> roll represent the right side of the platform rising as
> >>> viewed by an observer on top of the platform facing forward.
> >>> The value of the direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if
> >>> positive values of roll represent the right side of the
> >>> platform falling. The directionality of roll values is
> >>> unspecified if no direction attribute is present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_pitch: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Pitch is a rotation about
> >>> an axis (the Y axis) that is perpendicular to both the local
> >>> vertical axis (the Z axis) and the nominal forward motion
> >>> direction of the platform. Pitch is relative to the ?at
> >>> rest? rotation of the platform with respect to the Y axis.
> >>> The ?at rest? rotation of the platform may change over time.
> >>> The direction for positive values of pitch is specified by
> >>> an attribute named direction. The value of the direction
> >>> attribute is "clockwise" if positive values of pitch
> >>> represent the front of the platform rising as viewed by an
> >>> observer on top of the platform facing forward. The value of
> >>> the direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive
> >>> values of pitch represent the front of the platform falling.
> >>> The directionality of pitch values is unspecified if no
> >>> direction attribute is present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_yaw: Platform is a structure or vehicle that serves
> >>> as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include, but are
> >>> not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships, buoys, ground
> >>> stations, and masts. Yaw is a rotation about the local
> >>> vertical axis (the Z axis). Yaw is relative to the ?at rest?
> >>> rotation of the platform with respect to the Z axis. The ?at
> >>> rest? rotation of the platform may change over time. The
> >>> direction for positive values of yaw is specified by an
> >>> attribute named direction. The value of the direction
> >>> attribute is "clockwise" if positive values of yaw represent
> >>> the front of the platform moving to the right as viewed by
> >>> an observer on top of the platform facing forward. The value
> >>> of the direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive
> >>> values of yaw represent the front of the platform moving to
> >>> the left. The directionality of yaw values is unspecified if
> >>> no direction attribute is present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_surge: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Surge is a displacement
> >>> along an axis (the X axis) that is perpendicular to the
> >>> local vertical axis (the Z axis) and is coplanar with the
> >>> nominal forward motion direction of the platform. Surge is
> >>> relative to the ?at rest? position of the platform with
> >>> respect to the X axis. The ?at rest? position of the
> >>> platform may change over time. The direction for positive
> >>> values of surge is specified by an attribute named
> >>> direction. The value of the direction attribute is
> >>> "positive" if positive values of surge represent the
> >>> platform moving forward as viewed by an observer on top of
> >>> the platform facing forward. The value of the direction
> >>> attribute is "negative" if positive values of surge
> >>> represent the platform moving backward. The directionality
> >>> of surge values is unspecified if no direction attribute is
> >>> present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_sway: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Sway is a displacement
> >>> along an axis (the Y axis) that is perpendicular to both the
> >>> local vertical axis (the Z axis) and the nominal forward
> >>> motion direction of the platform. Sway is relative to the
> >>> ?at rest? position of the platform with respect to the Y
> >>> axis. The ?at rest? position of the platform may change over
> >>> time. The direction for positive values of sway is
> >>> specified by an attribute named direction. The value of the
> >>> direction attribute is "positive" if positive values of sway
> >>> represent the platform moving left as viewed by an observer
> >>> on top of the platform facing forward. The value of the
> >>> direction attribute is "negative" if positive values of sway
> >>> represent the platform moving right. The directionality of
> >>> sway values is unspecified if no direction attribute is
> >>> present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_heave: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Heave is a displacement
> >>> along the local vertical axis (the Z axis). Heave is
> >>> relative to the ?at rest? position of the platform with
> >>> respect to the Z axis. The ?at rest? position of the
> >>> platform may change over time. The direction for positive
> >>> values of heave is specified by an attribute named
> >>> direction. The value of the direction attribute is
> >>> "positive" if positive values of heave represent the
> >>> platform moving up as viewed by an observer on top of the
> >>> platform facing forward. The value of the direction
> >>> attribute is "negative" if positive values of heave
> >>> represent the platform moving down. The directionality of
> >>> heave values is unspecified if no direction attribute is
> >>> present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_course: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Course is the clockwise
> >>> angle with respect to North of the nominal forward motion
> >>> direction of the platform.
> >>>
> >>> platform_orientation: Platform is a structure or vehicle
> >>> that serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms
> >>> include, but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes,
> >>> ships, buoys, ground stations, and masts. Orientation is the
> >>> clockwise angle with respect to North of the longitudinal
> >>> (front-to-back) axis of the platform, which may be different
> >>> than the platform course (see platform_course).
> >>>
> >>> platform_roll_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Roll rate is the rate of
> >>> rotation about an axis (the X axis) that is perpendicular to
> >>> the local vertical axis (the Z axis) and is coplanar with
> >>> the nominal forward motion direction of the platform. Roll
> >>> rate might not include changes in the ?at rest? rotation of
> >>> the platform, which may change over time. The direction for
> >>> positive values of roll rate is specified by an attribute
> >>> named direction. The value of the direction attribute is
> >>> "clockwise" if positive values of roll rate represent the
> >>> right side of the platform rising as viewed by an observer
> >>> on top of the platform facing forward. The value of the
> >>> direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive values of
> >>> roll rate represent the right side of the platform falling.
> >>> The directionality of roll rate values is unspecified if no
> >>> direction attribute is present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_pitch_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Pitch rate is the rate of
> >>> rotation about an axis (the Y axis) that is perpendicular to
> >>> both the local vertical axis (the Z axis) and the nominal
> >>> forward motion direction of the platform. Pitch rate might
> >>> not include changes in the ?at rest? rotation of the
> >>> platform, which may change over time. The direction for
> >>> positive values of pitch rate is specified by an attribute
> >>> named direction. The value of the direction attribute is
> >>> "clockwise" if positive values of pitch rate represent the
> >>> front of the platform rising as viewed by an observer on top
> >>> of the platform facing forward. The value of the direction
> >>> attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive values of pitch
> >>> rate represent the front of the platform falling. The
> >>> directionality of pitch rate values is unspecified if no
> >>> direction attribute is present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_yaw_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Yaw rate is the rate of
> >>> rotation about the local vertical axis (the Z axis). Yaw
> >>> rate might not include changes in the ?at rest? rotation of
> >>> the platform, which may change over time. The direction for
> >>> positive values of yaw rate is specified by an attribute
> >>> named direction. The value of the direction attribute is
> >>> "clockwise" if positive values of yaw rate represent the
> >>> front of the platform moving to the right as viewed by an
> >>> observer on top of the platform facing forward. The value of
> >>> the direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive
> >>> values of yaw rate represent the front of the platform
> >>> moving to the left. The directionality of yaw rate values is
> >>> unspecified if no direction attribute is present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_surge_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Surge rate is the rate of
> >>> displacement along an axis (the X axis) that is
> >>> perpendicular to the local vertical axis (the Z axis) and is
> >>> coplanar with the nominal forward motion direction of the
> >>> platform. Surge rate might not include changes in the ?at
> >>> rest? position of the platform, which may change over time.
> >>> The direction for positive values of surge rate is specified
> >>> by an attribute named direction. The value of the direction
> >>> attribute is "positive" if positive values of surge rate
> >>> represent the platform moving forward as viewed by an
> >>> observer on top of the platform facing forward. The value of
> >>> the direction attribute is "negative" if positive values of
> >>> surge rate represent the platform moving backward. The
> >>> directionality of surge rate values is unspecified if no
> >>> direction attribute is present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_sway_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Sway rate is the rate of
> >>> displacement along an axis (the Y axis) that is
> >>> perpendicular to both the local vertical axis (the Z axis)
> >>> and the nominal forward motion direction of the platform.
> >>> Sway rate might not include changes in the ?at rest?
> >>> position of the platform, which may change over time. The
> >>> direction for positive values of sway rate is specified by
> >>> an attribute named direction. The value of the direction
> >>> attribute is "positive" if positive values of sway rate
> >>> represent the platform moving left as viewed by an observer
> >>> on top of the platform facing forward. The value of the
> >>> direction attribute is "negative" if positive values of sway
> >>> rate represent the platform moving right. The directionality
> >>> of sway rate values is unspecified if no direction attribute
> >>> is present.
> >>>
> >>> platform_heave_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
> >>> serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
> >>> but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
> >>> buoys, ground stations, and masts. Heave rate is the rate of
> >>> displacement along the local vertical axis (the Z axis).
> >>> Heave rate might not include changes in the ?at rest?
> >>> position of the platform, which may change over time. The
> >>> direction for positive values of heave rate is specified by
> >>> an attribute named direction. The value of the direction
> >>> attribute is "positive" if positive values of heave rate
> >>> represent the platform moving up as viewed by an observer on
> >>> top of the platform facing forward. The value of the
> >>> direction attribute is "negative" if positive values of
> >>> heave rate represent the platform moving down. The
> >>> directionality of heave rate values is unspecified if no
> >>> direction attribute is present.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Grace and peace,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> CF-metadata mailing list
> >>> CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> >>> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mailman.cgd.ucar.edu_mailman_listinfo_cf-2Dmetadata&d=DwMFaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=V30oufQn7eoscpwV3fkPj-Rzw4SsBmtwWpTQ8PZaDgQ&s=aEFMW9rC-ZIMfpnOfGtNzFe4-ieMDTvZ6FT1YaDGMzk&e=>
> >>
> >> -- John Helly, University of California, San Diego / San
> >>Diego Supercomputer Center / Scripps Institution of Oceanography
> >>/ 760 840 8660 mobile /http://www.sdsc.edu/~hellyj <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.sdsc.edu_-257Ehellyj&d=DwMFaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=V30oufQn7eoscpwV3fkPj-Rzw4SsBmtwWpTQ8PZaDgQ&s=t3yS7bwFeIbplaq59rJwZjTCr0nh-AAbloaOEdxwExk&e=>
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> >
> > -- CICS-NC
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> > *Jim Biard*
> > *Research Scholar*
> > Cooperative Institute for Climate and Satellites NC
> > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cicsnc.org_&d=DwMFaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=Vm7o2ZGxPkkqRuPs8nVMVQ&m=V30oufQn7eoscpwV3fkPj-Rzw4SsBmtwWpTQ8PZaDgQ&s=FsLkqUXutAcXAPp22ZFFI6PUFlxtYMRYP65HFKMn6wQ&e=>
> >
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> >
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> >
> > /formerly NOAA?s National Climatic Data Center/
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> --
> Kenneth E. Kehoe
> Research Associate - University of Oklahoma
> Cooperative Institute for Mesoscale Meteorological Studies
> ARM Climate Research Facility - Data Quality Office
> e-mail: kkehoe at ou.edu | Office: 303-497-4754 | Cell: 405-826-0299
>
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