Dear Jim,
>From my researches into existing oceanographic data sets (SeaDataCloud holdings plus EU glider data projects), covering heave, pitch, roll and yaw. I haven't discovered a single deviation from the conventions:
heave positive up
Pitch positive bow/nose up
yaw positive to startboard
roll starboard side down
I have yet to find any data sets, other than those described by Ken in these discussions, in my searches containing surge or sway.
The only ambiguity I have found in the wider domain of Google is where the concept of 'positive clockwise' has been used without specifying whether the observer is looking forwards from the platform or looking at the front of the platform. This isn't helped by the multitude of bidirectional vectors (arrows at each end) in illustrative diagrams.
Might our lives be made easier if we adopted a set of conventions, state them explicitly in the Standard Names as Jonathan suggests leaving room in the unlikely - in my view at least - event of Standard Names for the opposite convention being required?
Cheers, Roy.
I have now retired but will continue to be active through an Emeritus Fellowship using this e-mail address.
________________________________
From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of Jim Biard <jbiard at cicsnc.org>
Sent: 31 August 2018 14:38
To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave
Jonathan,
That's only part of the issue. Here are the issues as I see them.
* There is no single sign convention being followed in existing datasets "in the wild".
* There is a long-standing convention for vertical coordinates using the attribute positive rather than having pairs of standard names for height_positive_up, height_positive_down, etc. The suggested solution is corollary, and the positive attribute could be used instead of adding a new attribute named direction with a suitable expansion of possible valid values.
* In order to cover all bases, we'd need three versions for each standard name (e.g. - platform_roll, platform_roll_clockwise, platform_roll_anticlockwise - or similar names)
* Having three different versions of each standard name will lead to new possibilities for getting things wrong by picking the wrong version.
* Semantically, there is only one concept in each case. If I am searching for roll variables and I have multiple names that mean roll, I must expand my search to include all variants. This is a small example, but there are other examples of this problem that are definitely not trivial and defeat one of the goals for using standard names - being able to find like quantities across datasets, particularly using automated techniques rather than human eyes.
Grace and peace,
Jim
On 8/31/18 8:52 AM, Jonathan Gregory wrote:
Dear all
I haven't been following this discussion, so please excuse me if I've missed
the point. I think you are suggesting introducing a new attribute to indicate
the positive sense of various new quantities for platform orientation - is
that right? To do that would not be consistent with other standard names, which
(where relevant) all have the positive sense indicate in the standard name
itself. That's why there are many pairs of standard names for upward/downward,
in particular. The reason for doing this is to make it impossible to name the
quantity without indicating its sign convention, whereas a separate attribute
can be omitted, and probably sometimes will. It also opens new possibilities
for getting things wrong, by putting illegal values in it.
Therefore I would argue for the same approach here, both because I think it's
less error-prone, and for consistency with other CF standard names. I'm sure
the objection occurs to you that this means more standard names. That's true,
but it's only twice as many, I believe, since each of the quantities has only
two possible senses.
Best wishes
Jonathan
----- Forwarded message from Kenneth Kehoe <kkehoe at ou.edu><mailto:kkehoe at ou.edu> -----
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:05:44 -0600
From: Kenneth Kehoe <kkehoe at ou.edu><mailto:kkehoe at ou.edu>
To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Platform Heave
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.0
I think we should keep things simple as Ethan suggests below. But
since the proposed attribute "direction" is defined as indicating
the positive direction we don't need to include the word positive.
The terms would then be:
roll: "right_side_up" and "right_side_down"
pitch: "nose_up" and "nose_down"
yaw: "nose_right" and "nose_left"
surge: "forward" and "backward"
sway: "left" and "right"
heave: "up" and "down"
It would be nice to be more explicit in the netCDF file and require
less on the standard_name definition so I would suggest we use the
original proposed attribute name of "positive_direction" with the
above allowed values.
Or if we don't want to add a new attribute we could use the existing
"positive" attribute and expand its allowed use. I've proposed this
in the past and it was decided to not expand the definition. I think
the concern for not expanding positive was the requirement of only
using that attribute on coordinate variables. For the coordinate
variable the only allowable values are up and down. But for this use
those values would only be attached to a variable, not a coordinate
variable.
Since we are creating an attribute to define the positive direction
I would like to add radial definition of "toward" and "away". But I
think we can simplify this a bit further. If we define the point of
reference that is moving in the standard name then we don't need to
put the point of reference in the positive (or direction or
positive_direction) attribute. For example the pitch standard_name
would indicate the location of reference of the nose. This would
then reduce the list of possible options to:
roll: "up" and "down"
pitch: "up" and "down"
yaw: "right" and "left"
surge: "forward" and "backward"
sway: "left" and "right"
heave: "up" and "down"
If we could use the current attribute of "positive" that has up and
down already defined then we only need to to add "right", "left",
"forward", "backward", "toward", "away".
Easy!
Ken
On 2018-8-29 13:54, Ethan Davis wrote:
Hey Jim,
How about removing one layer of terminology by using your
definitions for the allowed values of "direction":
roll: "positive_right_side_up" and "positive_right_side_down".
pitch: "positive_nose_up" and "positive_nose_down".
yaw: "positive_nose_right" and "positive_nose_left".
surge: "positive_forward" and "positive_backward".
sway: "positive_left" and "positive_right".
heave: "positive_up" and "positive_down".
Cheers,
Ethan
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:02 PM Jim Biard <jbiard at cicsnc.org<mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>
<mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org><mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>> wrote:
John,
There are a variety of conventions for defining roll, pitch, and
yaw out there. This is why we are avoiding a specific one. Others
have searched existing datasets that are using earlier versions of
these standard names (or not using standard names) and found that
they don't all follow the same convention.
Ethan,
We purposely aren't answering that question directly because of
the issue above. I believe that I have consistently followed the
convention in which clockwise and anticlockwise are rotational
directions around a unit vector facing the observer, where the X
unit vector is in the nominally forward direction, the Z axis is
in the local up direction, and the Y axis unit vector is "Z cross
X", which forms a right-handed coordinate system. The terms are
meaningful and accurate using that convention, but the names could
be "alpha" and "beta" or "dog" and "cat" as long as they are used
correctly.
This whole topic is fraught with competing conventions, so we are
attempting to avoid declaring that only one of them is valid, with
it's corresponding requirement that everyone follow that one sign
convention.
In fact, we could reword things to remove naming the axes X, Y,
and Z, and perhaps we should. I know of satellite platforms that
define their Y axis unit vector as pointing forward and the Z axis
unit vector as pointing down.
Thoughts?
Grace and peace,
Jim
On 8/29/18 1:32 PM, John Helly wrote:
Perhaps one should refer to the discipline of hydrostatics for
help with this? This paper, pulled from a quick search, has a
diagram referencing the platforms' frame of reference with
respect to its center of gravity. Sorry if this comment is
retrograde.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mpe/2010/934714/
<
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J.
On 8/29/18 10:09, Ethan Davis wrote:
Hi Jim, all,
I'm a bit confused by the "clockwise" and "anticlockwise". You
mention the orientation of the observer but not the
location/orientation of the clock. My assumptions (not sure why)
for the clock: for roll, the observer (who is facing forward)
would be facing the clock; for pitch, the observer would look
right to see the clock; and for yaw, the observer would look
down to see the clock. That works for your definitions of pitch
and yaw, but is backwards for roll.
Does "clockwise" add, in some way, another degree of freedom to
the definition? Does that degree of freedom need to be nailed
down in the definitions? Or other terms used instead? I don't
have any good suggestions other than "positive" and "negative".
Cheers,
Ethan
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:03 AM Jim Biard <jbiard at cicsnc.org<mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>
<mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org><mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>> wrote:
Hi.
I've finally gotten back to this topic! The definitions
below call out an attribute named "direction" that is used
to specify the direction for positive values of the
different quantities. We may need to add a definition for
the attribute to the Conventions. The values and meanings
for the direction attribute are:
roll: "clockwise" for positive right side up and
"anticlockwise" for positive right side down.
pitch: "clockwise" for positive nose up and "anticlockwise"
for positive nose down.
yaw: "clockwise" for positive nose right and "anticlockwise"
for positive nose left.
surge: "positive" for positive forward and "negative" for
positive backward.
sway: "positive" for positive left and "negative" for
positive right.
heave: "positive" for positive up and "negative" for
positive down.
And here are the standard name definitions:
platform_roll: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Roll is a rotation about
an axis (the X axis) that is perpendicular to the local
vertical axis (the Z axis) and is coplanar with the nominal
forward motion direction of the platform. Roll is relative
to the ?at rest? rotation of the platform with respect to
the X axis. The ?at rest? rotation of the platform may
change over time. The direction for positive values of roll
is specified by an attribute named direction. The value of
the direction attribute is "clockwise" if positive values of
roll represent the right side of the platform rising as
viewed by an observer on top of the platform facing forward.
The value of the direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if
positive values of roll represent the right side of the
platform falling. The directionality of roll values is
unspecified if no direction attribute is present.
platform_pitch: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Pitch is a rotation about
an axis (the Y axis) that is perpendicular to both the local
vertical axis (the Z axis) and the nominal forward motion
direction of the platform. Pitch is relative to the ?at
rest? rotation of the platform with respect to the Y axis.
The ?at rest? rotation of the platform may change over time.
The direction for positive values of pitch is specified by
an attribute named direction. The value of the direction
attribute is "clockwise" if positive values of pitch
represent the front of the platform rising as viewed by an
observer on top of the platform facing forward. The value of
the direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive
values of pitch represent the front of the platform falling.
The directionality of pitch values is unspecified if no
direction attribute is present.
platform_yaw: Platform is a structure or vehicle that serves
as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include, but are
not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships, buoys, ground
stations, and masts. Yaw is a rotation about the local
vertical axis (the Z axis). Yaw is relative to the ?at rest?
rotation of the platform with respect to the Z axis. The ?at
rest? rotation of the platform may change over time. The
direction for positive values of yaw is specified by an
attribute named direction. The value of the direction
attribute is "clockwise" if positive values of yaw represent
the front of the platform moving to the right as viewed by
an observer on top of the platform facing forward. The value
of the direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive
values of yaw represent the front of the platform moving to
the left. The directionality of yaw values is unspecified if
no direction attribute is present.
platform_surge: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Surge is a displacement
along an axis (the X axis) that is perpendicular to the
local vertical axis (the Z axis) and is coplanar with the
nominal forward motion direction of the platform. Surge is
relative to the ?at rest? position of the platform with
respect to the X axis. The ?at rest? position of the
platform may change over time. The direction for positive
values of surge is specified by an attribute named
direction. The value of the direction attribute is
"positive" if positive values of surge represent the
platform moving forward as viewed by an observer on top of
the platform facing forward. The value of the direction
attribute is "negative" if positive values of surge
represent the platform moving backward. The directionality
of surge values is unspecified if no direction attribute is
present.
platform_sway: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Sway is a displacement
along an axis (the Y axis) that is perpendicular to both the
local vertical axis (the Z axis) and the nominal forward
motion direction of the platform. Sway is relative to the
?at rest? position of the platform with respect to the Y
axis. The ?at rest? position of the platform may change over
time. The direction for positive values of sway is
specified by an attribute named direction. The value of the
direction attribute is "positive" if positive values of sway
represent the platform moving left as viewed by an observer
on top of the platform facing forward. The value of the
direction attribute is "negative" if positive values of sway
represent the platform moving right. The directionality of
sway values is unspecified if no direction attribute is
present.
platform_heave: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Heave is a displacement
along the local vertical axis (the Z axis). Heave is
relative to the ?at rest? position of the platform with
respect to the Z axis. The ?at rest? position of the
platform may change over time. The direction for positive
values of heave is specified by an attribute named
direction. The value of the direction attribute is
"positive" if positive values of heave represent the
platform moving up as viewed by an observer on top of the
platform facing forward. The value of the direction
attribute is "negative" if positive values of heave
represent the platform moving down. The directionality of
heave values is unspecified if no direction attribute is
present.
platform_course: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Course is the clockwise
angle with respect to North of the nominal forward motion
direction of the platform.
platform_orientation: Platform is a structure or vehicle
that serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms
include, but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes,
ships, buoys, ground stations, and masts. Orientation is the
clockwise angle with respect to North of the longitudinal
(front-to-back) axis of the platform, which may be different
than the platform course (see platform_course).
platform_roll_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Roll rate is the rate of
rotation about an axis (the X axis) that is perpendicular to
the local vertical axis (the Z axis) and is coplanar with
the nominal forward motion direction of the platform. Roll
rate might not include changes in the ?at rest? rotation of
the platform, which may change over time. The direction for
positive values of roll rate is specified by an attribute
named direction. The value of the direction attribute is
"clockwise" if positive values of roll rate represent the
right side of the platform rising as viewed by an observer
on top of the platform facing forward. The value of the
direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive values of
roll rate represent the right side of the platform falling.
The directionality of roll rate values is unspecified if no
direction attribute is present.
platform_pitch_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Pitch rate is the rate of
rotation about an axis (the Y axis) that is perpendicular to
both the local vertical axis (the Z axis) and the nominal
forward motion direction of the platform. Pitch rate might
not include changes in the ?at rest? rotation of the
platform, which may change over time. The direction for
positive values of pitch rate is specified by an attribute
named direction. The value of the direction attribute is
"clockwise" if positive values of pitch rate represent the
front of the platform rising as viewed by an observer on top
of the platform facing forward. The value of the direction
attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive values of pitch
rate represent the front of the platform falling. The
directionality of pitch rate values is unspecified if no
direction attribute is present.
platform_yaw_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Yaw rate is the rate of
rotation about the local vertical axis (the Z axis). Yaw
rate might not include changes in the ?at rest? rotation of
the platform, which may change over time. The direction for
positive values of yaw rate is specified by an attribute
named direction. The value of the direction attribute is
"clockwise" if positive values of yaw rate represent the
front of the platform moving to the right as viewed by an
observer on top of the platform facing forward. The value of
the direction attribute is "anticlockwise" if positive
values of yaw rate represent the front of the platform
moving to the left. The directionality of yaw rate values is
unspecified if no direction attribute is present.
platform_surge_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Surge rate is the rate of
displacement along an axis (the X axis) that is
perpendicular to the local vertical axis (the Z axis) and is
coplanar with the nominal forward motion direction of the
platform. Surge rate might not include changes in the ?at
rest? position of the platform, which may change over time.
The direction for positive values of surge rate is specified
by an attribute named direction. The value of the direction
attribute is "positive" if positive values of surge rate
represent the platform moving forward as viewed by an
observer on top of the platform facing forward. The value of
the direction attribute is "negative" if positive values of
surge rate represent the platform moving backward. The
directionality of surge rate values is unspecified if no
direction attribute is present.
platform_sway_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Sway rate is the rate of
displacement along an axis (the Y axis) that is
perpendicular to both the local vertical axis (the Z axis)
and the nominal forward motion direction of the platform.
Sway rate might not include changes in the ?at rest?
position of the platform, which may change over time. The
direction for positive values of sway rate is specified by
an attribute named direction. The value of the direction
attribute is "positive" if positive values of sway rate
represent the platform moving left as viewed by an observer
on top of the platform facing forward. The value of the
direction attribute is "negative" if positive values of sway
rate represent the platform moving right. The directionality
of sway rate values is unspecified if no direction attribute
is present.
platform_heave_rate: Platform is a structure or vehicle that
serves as a base for mounting sensors. Platforms include,
but are not limited to, satellites, aeroplanes, ships,
buoys, ground stations, and masts. Heave rate is the rate of
displacement along the local vertical axis (the Z axis).
Heave rate might not include changes in the ?at rest?
position of the platform, which may change over time. The
direction for positive values of heave rate is specified by
an attribute named direction. The value of the direction
attribute is "positive" if positive values of heave rate
represent the platform moving up as viewed by an observer on
top of the platform facing forward. The value of the
direction attribute is "negative" if positive values of
heave rate represent the platform moving down. The
directionality of heave rate values is unspecified if no
direction attribute is present.
Grace and peace,
Jim
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*Jim Biard*
*Research Scholar*
Cooperative Institute for Climate and Satellites NC
<
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North Carolina State University
<
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NOAA National Centers for Environmental Information
<
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/formerly NOAA?s National Climatic Data Center/
151 Patton Ave, Asheville, NC 28801
e: jbiard at cicsnc.org<mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org> <mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org><mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>
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Kenneth E. Kehoe
Research Associate - University of Oklahoma
Cooperative Institute for Mesoscale Meteorological Studies
ARM Climate Research Facility - Data Quality Office
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[CICS-NC] <http://www.cicsnc.org/> Visit us on
Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/cicsnc> Jim Biard
Research Scholar
Cooperative Institute for Climate and Satellites NC <http://cicsnc.org/>
North Carolina State University <http://ncsu.edu/>
NOAA National Centers for Environmental Information <http://ncdc.noaa.gov/>
formerly NOAA?s National Climatic Data Center
151 Patton Ave, Asheville, NC 28801
e: jbiard at cicsnc.org<mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>
o: +1 828 271 4900
Connect with us on Facebook for climate<https://www.facebook.com/NOAANCEIclimate> and ocean and geophysics<https://www.facebook.com/NOAANCEIoceangeo> information, and follow us on Twitter at _at_NOAANCEIclimate<https://twitter.com/NOAANCEIclimate> and @NOAANCEIocngeo<https://twitter.com/NOAANCEIocngeo>.
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