Is the plan also to demote the "silicate" and "phosphate" names? That
would seem to make sense to me, consistent with Jim's points.
On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 12:13 PM, <martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
>
> thanks. I think that means that we need a corrections to the statements,
> from the CF Standard Name list, that:
>
> (1) '"Dissolved inorganic phosphorus" means phosphate ions in solution' in
> the CF Standard Name definition for mole_concentration_of_
> dissolved_inorganic_phosphorus_in_sea_water, and
> (2) '"Dissolved inorganic silicon" means silicate ions in solution' in the
> definition of mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_silicon_
> in_sea_water
>
> regards,
> Martin
> ________________________________________
> From: James Orr [James.Orr at lsce.ipsl.fr]
> Sent: 24 March 2017 15:46
> To: Lowry, Roy K.
> Cc: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Silicate vs. dissolved inorganic silicon
>
> Dissolved inorganic phosphorus in seawater takes several forms, with
> phosphate (P043-) being only one of them. Furthermore, PO43- is not
> even the most abundant form at normal seawater pH. Rather it is HPO42-
> (hydrogen phosphate). Oceanographers do often refer to phosphate but
> what they really taking about is total dissolved inorganic phosphorus
> (the sum of all inorganic forms).
>
> The seawater system for dissolved inorganic silicon is simpler because
> we only need to consider two forms: silicic acid (Si(OH)4) and silicate
> (SiO(OH)3-). The former is more abundant than the latter in seawater.
>
> It is best then to refer to
> - total dissolved inorganic phosphorus rather than phosphate and
> - total dissolved inorganic silicon rather than silicate.
>
> For more insight see the last figure in the OMIP-BGC protocols paper
> in the CMIP6 special issue at
>
> http://www.geosci-model-dev-discuss.net/gmd-2016-155/
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jim
>
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2017, Lowry, Roy K. wrote:
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> >
> > If one makes the assumption that all the silicon and phosphorus atoms
> not associated with organic ligands are
> > in a single chemical form associated with oxygen in solution then what
> Martin says is correct. In my
> > experience I have never known anybody challenge this assumption and I
> cannot think of any other anions
> > incorporating P and Si. Consequently, I would agree that whilst there is
> a theoretical semantic difference
> > between the members of each Standard Name pair I would agree that this
> could be ignored and they could be
> > considered synonyms.
> >
> >
> > Note, this only holds true as these are MOLE concentrations. The MASS
> concentration of inorganic phosphorus
> > is very different from the MASS concentration of phosphate as the oxygen
> atoms have mass.
> >
> >
> > If the decision is taken to take action on this then I would recommend
> that the 'inorganic_silicon' and
> > 'inorganic_phosphorus' names be than ones to be converted to aliases.
> This is based on common terminology
> > usage in the oceanographic community.
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Roy.
> >
> >
> > Please note that I partially retired on 01/11/2015. I am now only
> working 7.5 hours a week and can only
> > guarantee e-mail response on Wednesdays, my day in the office. All
> vocabulary queries should be sent to
> > enquiries at bodc.ac.uk. Please also use this e-mail if your requirement
> is urgent.
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> _________________________________________________
> > From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of
> martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk
> > <martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk>
> > Sent: 24 March 2017 08:48
> > To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
> > Subject: [CF-metadata] Silicate vs. dissolved inorganic silicon
> > Hello Alison, others,
> >
> > the standard name list includes both
> > (1) mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_silicon_in_sea_water and
> (2)
> > mole_concentration_of_silicate_in_sea_water
> >
> > The definition of the first says that "dissolved inorganic silicon"
> means silicate ions in solution. Both
> > have units of "mol m-3". It looks to me as though they are describing
> the same thing. If this is true, should
> > one be demoted to the alias of the other? If they are different, what is
> the difference?
> >
> > The same question applies to mole_concentration_of_dissolved_inorganic_phosphorus_in_sea_water
> and
> > mole_concentration_of_phosphate_in_sea_water.
> >
> > regards,
> > Martin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > This is an unmoderated list for discussions about interpretation,
> clarification, and proposals for extensions
> > or change to the CF conventions.
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> _________________________________________________
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> _________________________________________________
> >
> >
>
> --
> LSCE/IPSL, Laboratoire des Sciences du Climat et de l'Environnement
> CEA-CNRS-UVSQ
>
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