[CF-metadata] Negative emissions?
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-- *** Sent from my iPhone *** -- Dr Craig Donlon Sentinel-3 Mission Scientist, Principal Scientist for Oceans and Ice European Space Agency/ESTEC Keplerlaan 1, 2201 AZ Noordwijk The Netherlands e: craig.donlon at esa.int t: +31 (0)715 653687 f: +31 (0)715 655675 m: +31 (0)627 013244 Skype: crazit > On 8 Mar 2016, at 10:47, <martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk> <martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk> wrote: > > Hello All, > > Karl has raised an objection to the wording ".... not the skin ...." which was carried over from the current CF Standard Name definition for sea_surface_temperature in my suggested update. The update is intended to correct a currently erroneous reference to "surface_temperature" as skin temperature. Karl's objection, which also applies to the existing definition (and appears to date back to v1 fo the list), could be accomodated by a simple change: > > ?Sea surface temperature is usually abbreviated as "SST". It > is the temperature of sea water near the surface (including > the part under sea-ice, if any). More specific terms sea_surface_skin_temperature and surface_temperature > are available for the skin and interface > temperature respectively. For the temperature of sea water at a > particular depth or layer, a data variable of > sea_water_temperature with a vertical coordinate axis should > be used.? > > regards, > Martin > > > > ________________________________________ > From: CF-metadata [cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu] on behalf of cf-metadata-request at cgd.ucar.edu [cf-metadata-request at cgd.ucar.edu] > Sent: 08 March 2016 01:46 > To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu > Subject: CF-metadata Digest, Vol 155, Issue 13 > > Send CF-metadata mailing list submissions to > cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cf-metadata-request at cgd.ucar.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cf-metadata-owner at cgd.ucar.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of CF-metadata digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Confusing skin temperature and interface temperature > (Karl Taylor) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 17:47:05 -0800 > From: Karl Taylor <taylor13 at llnl.gov> > To: Peter Minnett <pminnett at rsmas.miami.edu>, > alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk, craig.donlon at esa.int > Cc: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu, kenneth.casey at noaa.gov, > Anne.Ocarroll at eumetsat.int, Edward.m.armstrong at jpl.nasa.gov > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and interface > temperature > Message-ID: <56DE2F19.2080302 at llnl.gov> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > Dear Peter, Craig and all, > > For observations I am not arguing that all the different ocean > temperature definitions aren't needed. In describing observations I > understand that skin and surface temperature are not identical. My > statement was that by construction (almost all) current models assume > that the temperature is vertically uniform (i.e., the water is perfectly > mixed and homogeneous) throughout the upper most layer, so in *those* > models the statement that the "sea_surface_temperature" is "not the skin > or interface temperature" is *wrong*. > > The CF standard name description of "sea_surface_temperature" is > somewhat vague by design: "the temperature of sea water near the > surface". Because it is vague, it *could* defensibly be used to > represent any more precisely defined near-surface temperature, including > "sea_surface_skin_temperature", "sea_surface_subskin_temperature", or > "sea_surface_foundation_temperature". > > Even for observations it would be wrong to say "sea water near the > surface is not the skin temperature". > > Since skin temperature is near the surface and sea_surface_temperature > is vague, it might in fact be the same as skin temperature (e.g., if > sea_surface_temperature in fact recorded the conductive > diffusion-dominated sub-layer at a depth of approximately 10-20 > micrometers below the air-sea interface). Again, usually in models, > sea_surface_temperature most emphatically does provide the model's best > (only!) estimate of skin temperature. > > If the description were changed to read: > "It is the temperature of sea water near the surface (including the part > under sea-ice, if any), and not necessarily the skin temperature". > I would be happy. > > Better yet, why not include in the discussion the following points: > > 1) surface temperature, sea_surface_temperature, > sea_surface_skin_temperature, sea_surface_subskin_temperature, and > sea_surface_foundation_temperature are all terms that might apply to the > temperature of sea water. > 2) When the temperature represents a horizontal spatial average, > surface_temperature represents the mean of the temperature over all > surface types in the domain, whereas the other temperatures do not. > 3) The sea_surface_temperature is imprecise because it represents a > near-surface temperature sampled within (or averaged over) the portion > of the column extending from the surface down to perhaps several > meters. In many ocean models, the temperature does not vary in that > portion of the column so sea_surface_temperature might be the > appropriate standard_name. Note that in this case, if part of the > horizontal domain represented by this temperature is under sea ice, the > temperature would not be the same as surface_temperature (which would > include contributions from the surface of the sea ice). > 4) The other CF standard names for ocean temperatures have more precise > definitions, and so those names should be used whenever they apply. > > best regards, > Karl > > > >> On 3/7/16 7:06 AM, Peter Minnett wrote: >> Dear Alison, Craig, Karl et al., >> >> I have refrained from entering this discussion until now as Craig has >> made the points carefully and succinctly. But I think there's a >> fundamental issue at stake about what these definitions are for. >> >> My view is that definitions such as these are intended to provide a >> framework for communication that accurately but briefly represents our >> best understanding of the physics of the upper ocean and lower >> atmosphere. Thus, the definitions should not be constrained, or >> adapted, to reflect our current measurement or modelling capabilities >> as these, we expect, will improve with time. If, at some point in the >> future, we learn something new about how the thermal structure of the >> upper ocean behaves, then maybe the definitions will have to be >> revised, but for now I believe our definitions should be based on our >> understanding of the physical behavior of sea water near the air-sea >> interface. And this is what we tried to achieve with the GHRSST >> definitions. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Peter >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> Peter J. Minnett >> Professor, Department of Ocean Sciences >> Speaker, RSMAS School Council. >> Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science >> University of Miami >> 4600 Rickenbacker Causeway >> Miami, FL 33149-1031, USA >> >> Chairman, Science Team of the Group for High Resolution Sea-Surface >> Temperature (GHRSST) >> >> Tel: +1 (305) 421-4104 Fax: +1 (305) 421-4696 >> email: pminnett at rsmas.miami.edu >> http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/people/faculty-index/?p=peter-minnett >> https://www.ghrsst.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 3/7/2016 6:41 AM, alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk wrote: >>> >>> Dear Craig and Karl, >>> >>> Thanks both for your comments. It is clear that we need some more >>> discussion on this topic. I will be making an update to the standard >>> name table tomorrow but will defer any changes to the sea surface >>> temperature names until we can all agree a position on this. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Alison >>> >>> ------ >>> >>> Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065 >>> >>> Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email: >>> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk <mailto:J.A.Pamment at rl.ac.uk> >>> >>> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory >>> >>> R25, 2.22 >>> >>> Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K. >>> >>> *From:*Craig Donlon [mailto:craig.donlon at esa.int] >>> *Sent:* 07 March 2016 02:18 >>> *To:* Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP) >>> *Cc:* taylor13 at llnl.gov; cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu; Kenneth Casey; >>> Peter Minnett; Anne O'Caroll; Edward Armstrong >>> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and interface >>> temperature >>> >>> Dear Alison and Karl: >>> >>> Thanks for the discussion here. The key issue is that model teams >>> need to be more precise as to which SST variable is being used. As >>> more advanced systems begin to fully couple ocean and atmosphere, >>> begin to perform radiance assimilation etc the need for each of the >>> different SST variables becomes readily apparent. >>> >>> I would not like to see any of the current CF SST definitions watered >>> down in the manner proposed. But rather to ask Karl to define what >>> he means by SST in the modelling context that he is working? >>> >>> Then we may hope to resolve the issue efficiently. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Craig >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *** Sent from my iPhone *** >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dr Craig Donlon >>> >>> Sentinel-3 Mission Scientist, >>> >>> Principal Scientist for Oceans and Ice >>> >>> European Space Agency/ESTEC >>> >>> Keplerlaan 1, 2201 AZ >>> >>> Noordwijk >>> >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> >>> >>> e: craig.donlon at esa.int >>> >>> t: +31 (0)715 653687 >>> >>> f: +31 (0)715 655675 >>> >>> m: +31 (0)627 013244 >>> >>> Skype: crazit >>> >>> >>> On 3 Mar 2016, at 19:53, <alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk >>> <mailto:alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk>> <alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk >>> <mailto:alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Karl, >>> >>> Thanks for your comments on this. Clearly we need to get this >>> right before I make any changes in the standard name table. >>> >>> I recall that the sea surface skin, subskin and foundation >>> temperatures were introduced primarily to describe satellite >>> radiometer data because the existing sea_surface_temperature name >>> was too vague. I have the impression that modellers sometimes use >>> the word ?skin? as being synonymous with the interface at the >>> bottom of the atmosphere and I think that was probably the >>> intention behind its use in the current definition. By contrast, >>> the observational community have a very specific definition for >>> the sea skin: ?the conductive diffusion-dominated sub-layer at a >>> depth of approximately 10 - 20 micrometers below the air-sea >>> interface?. So I think there is scope for some confusion here >>> since the more specific sea surface temperature names were >>> introduced. >>> >>> As far as standard name definitions are concerned, the main thing >>> is to ensure we provide clear guidance as to when a particular >>> name should be used and to explain the relationships between >>> similar names. I take your point that some models may be >>> deliberately formulated to have sea_surface_temperature (by which >>> I assume you mean the top layer of the model) the same as the >>> interface temperature. I assume you would still label it with a >>> standard name of sea_surface_temperature, even though in this >>> case it would be directly comparable with a variable with >>> standard name surface_temperature and we should probably explain >>> that in the definition. >>> >>> Do models ever output variables that you would actually want >>> label as ?skin?, ?subskin? or ?foundation? temperatures (as >>> defined in the existing standard names)? If not, then perhaps it >>> is best to simply note in the definition that the other names >>> exist and that they have very specific definitions. This avoids >>> the issue around the word ?skin?. >>> >>> These points would then lead to a definition something like the >>> following: >>> >>> ?Sea surface temperature is usually abbreviated as "SST". It is >>> the temperature of sea water near the surface (including the part >>> under sea-ice, if any), and is not necessarily the same as the >>> interface temperature at the bottom of the atmosphere, whose >>> standard name is surface_temperature. Some models are formulated >>> such that sea_surface_temperature and surface_temperature are the >>> same in ice free sea areas. The standard names >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature, sea_surface_subskin_temperature and >>> sea_surface_foundation_temperature can be used to describe the >>> temperature in specific layers close to the sea surface and are >>> often used to describe satellite observations. For the >>> temperature of sea water at a particular depth or layer, a >>> standard name of sea_water_temperature with a vertical coordinate >>> axis should be used.? >>> >>> Does that sound OK? Does it include all the necessary information? >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Alison >>> >>> ------ >>> >>> Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065 >>> >>> Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email: >>> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk <mailto:J.A.Pamment at rl.ac.uk> >>> >>> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory >>> >>> R25, 2.22 >>> >>> Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K. >>> >>> *From:*CF-metadata [mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu] *On >>> Behalf Of *Karl Taylor >>> *Sent:* 02 March 2016 20:26 >>> *To:* cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu> >>> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Confusing skin temperature and >>> interface temperature >>> >>> Dear Alison and all, >>> >>> For "sea_surface_temperature", there is a problem stating >>> definitively that it is "not the skin or interface temperature". >>> In most models the skin and interface temperatures over ice-free >>> (i.e., open) ocean are indeed the same as sea_surface_temperature >>> (by construction). I think it would be more accurate (and less >>> misleading) to say it is "not *necessarily* the skin or interface >>> temperature". You could also add to the list >>> "sea_surface_foundation_temperature" here because in models it >>> too is often the same as sea_surface_temperature". Models are >>> evolving, so this might not indefinitely be the case. >>> >>> thanks, >>> Karl >>> >>> >>> On 3/2/16 9:40 AM, >>> <mailto:alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk>alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk wrote: >>> >>> Dear Martin, All, >>> >>> No objections have been received to the proposed definition >>> change and it is now accepted for publication in the standard >>> name table. >>> >>> The name will in future appear as: >>> >>> sea_surface_temperature (canonical units: K) >>> >>> ?Sea surface temperature is usually abbreviated as "SST". It >>> is the temperature of sea water near the surface (including >>> the part under sea-ice, if any), not the skin or interface >>> temperature, whose standard names are >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature and surface_temperature, >>> respectively. For the temperature of sea water at a >>> particular depth or layer, a data variable of >>> sea_water_temperature with a vertical coordinate axis should >>> be used.? >>> >>> In response to Martin?s proposal I received an email from >>> Craig Donlon (original proposer of many of the current >>> sea_surface_X_temperature names). Craig and his team support >>> the Martin?s proposal and additionally point out an error >>> that occurs in the definition of the following names: >>> >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature >>> >>> sea_surface_subskin_temperature >>> >>> in which the first sentence reads ?The surface called >>> "surface" means the lower boundary of the atmosphere? even >>> though the temperatures are not in fact measured at the >>> sea-air boundary. The suggestion is to delete the initial >>> sentence from the definitions. I note also that a similar >>> situation currently exists with the standard name >>> sea_surface_foundation_temperature even though that >>> temperature generally refers to a depth of 1 ? 5 m below the >>> sea surface. >>> >>> I agree with Craig that the sentence should be deleted. I >>> think it was probably included by accident because most >>> ?surface? standard names do indeed refer to the interface >>> between the bottom of the atmosphere and whatever lies >>> beneath. I plan to remove the sentence from the definitions >>> of these three names at the next standard name table update >>> unless any objections are received in the meantime. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Alison >>> >>> ------ >>> >>> Alison Pamment Tel: +44 1235 778065 >>> >>> Centre for Environmental Data Analysis Email: >>> alison.pamment at stfc.ac.uk <mailto:J.A.Pamment at rl.ac.uk> >>> >>> STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory >>> >>> R25, 2.22 >>> >>> Harwell Campus, Didcot, OX11 0QX, U.K. >>> >>> *From:*Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP) >>> *Sent:* 03 February 2016 15:32 >>> *To:* Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP); >>> cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu> >>> *Subject:* RE: Confusing skin temperature and interface >>> temperature >>> >>> Dear Martin, >>> >>> Thank you for pointing this out. I agree that since the >>> introduction of the very precisely defined >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature name, the definition of the more >>> generic name is confusing. I agree with your suggested >>> amendment and unless anyone objects within the next seven >>> days the change will be accepted and added at the next update >>> of the standard name table. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Alison >>> >>> *From:*Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP) >>> *Sent:* 02 February 2016 16:07 >>> *To:* >>> <mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu; >>> Pamment, Alison (STFC,RAL,RALSP) >>> *Subject:* Confusing skin temperature and interface temperature >>> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> The CF Standard Name sea_surface_temperature includes the >>> statement that it is "./... not the skin temperature, whose >>> standard name is surface_temperature/". The last phrase here >>> is incorrect: the standard name of the skin temperature >>> is/sea_surface_skin_temperature/, not /surface_temperature/. >>> Can the definition be modified to read ".. /not the skin or >>> interface temperature, whose standard names are >>> sea_surface_skin_temperature and surface_temperature >>> respectively/"? >>> >>> regards, >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> CF-metadata mailing list >>> >>> CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu> >>> >>> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata >>> <https://secure-web.cisco.com/1tuODHTnfdQ3sBhVdVtvQSRkyRmHIs9nvDADRmlFauFKml3qk9suIDfvTfeaDbFvmmncKjtjbyKsUT696sKnywSfQl2F1aeExC32Qo65czODh371F727iG8p6JM2cyauMFthLR0SGuMC4dnKAqFSEJcOQeeGq5Pd614l-Dkqt4fDmUBH9kxN1hyWZNw7jc7tAXy-CpfArd-_VhK8fgSClUBCVXnHSWo9Jun3YWYnrYPt_7Is6tg_F6fj_p0NXmsD90_RrEjmMtGFwm9ht_KSX7DVwq52ngiWskMa01iQgRVMYMv-wFTQ18pJDOkdYlDOhNPblHz41WQS3FThueazQyMeq1LTXB8BarYL7nFT3nsw/https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__mailman.cgd.ucar.edu_mailman_listinfo_cf-2Dmetadata%26d%3DCwMGaQ%26c%3Dy2w-uYmhgFWijp_IQN0DhA%26r%3D0HNmq-PhkIBTp_Xo64DQvi0_M2lu06wIxOH1nNI6YOw%26m%3DON5hyu_fyflzAK5_2U73gXzNgww_VIv7ajRFMgifvOg%26s%3DbUyWPFXYNpVO8MbSCXOZsv6jLbQxCa3zOgGs7XlKk4I%26e%3D> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> CF-metadata mailing list >>> CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu <mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu> >>> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata >>> <https://secure-web.cisco.com/1tuODHTnfdQ3sBhVdVtvQSRkyRmHIs9nvDADRmlFauFKml3qk9suIDfvTfeaDbFvmmncKjtjbyKsUT696sKnywSfQl2F1aeExC32Qo65czODh371F727iG8p6JM2cyauMFthLR0SGuMC4dnKAqFSEJcOQeeGq5Pd614l-Dkqt4fDmUBH9kxN1hyWZNw7jc7tAXy-CpfArd-_VhK8fgSClUBCVXnHSWo9Jun3YWYnrYPt_7Is6tg_F6fj_p0NXmsD90_RrEjmMtGFwm9ht_KSX7DVwq52ngiWskMa01iQgRVMYMv-wFTQ18pJDOkdYlDOhNPblHz41WQS3FThueazQyMeq1LTXB8BarYL7nFT3nsw/https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__mailman.cgd.ucar.edu_mailman_listinfo_cf-2Dmetadata%26d%3DCwMGaQ%26c%3Dy2w-uYmhgFWijp_IQN0DhA%26r%3D0HNmq-PhkIBTp_Xo64DQvi0_M2lu06wIxOH1nNI6YOw%26m%3DON5hyu_fyflzAK5_2U73gXzNgww_VIv7ajRFMgifvOg%26s%3DbUyWPFXYNpVO8MbSCXOZsv6jLbQxCa3zOgGs7XlKk4I%26e%3D> >>> >>> This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. >>> The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its >>> content is not permitted. >>> If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. >>> Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. >>> Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/pipermail/cf-metadata/attachments/20160307/103d84ac/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > CF-metadata mailing list > CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata > > > ------------------------------ > > End of CF-metadata Digest, Vol 155, Issue 13 > ******************************************** > _______________________________________________ > CF-metadata mailing list > CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata > This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. 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