hi Benno
I think I've been too laconic. I agree with you 100%.
What I think we should do is
a) define the URIs, unambigously, and yes, that can be done by us (CF)
without any need for a service.
but I'd like to go a wee bit further, and suggest that
b) if you dereference such a URI as a URL, you get something useful.
Ideally, you could do a bit of content negotation and get a SKOS
document or an HTML definition or an XML definition. That's what I'd like
BODC to do for us (but if they don't, we have the capability). In the
previous sentence *us* means Alison and her new editing tools.
and
c) versions. hmm. that might be something to think about next year.
Best,
Bryan
> Hi Benno,
>
> As usual, you are making valid points. I became aware a while back
> of the issues resulting from terms inheriting the version number of
> the list. In SeaDataNet we have been side-stepping the problem in
> some cases by using URIs that default to the current version.
> However, that is opening up a whole can of worms with management of
> URI space in a deprecation use case.
>
> The CF community now has the opportunity to set the stage for its
> future URI addressing by defining Bryan's 'something'. It could
> just be the Standard Name, but that would completely close down the
> cfconventions.org namespace. So, a better 'something' would be
> 'standard_name/' plus the Standard Name. This would totally
> side-step the list versioning. I don't have a problem with that.
> Does anybody else?
>
> Your request for mappings between multiple URIs for identical
> entities should become a reality during 2011. I'm happy to do the
> work, but there's some back-office re-engineering that needs to be
> done first.
>
> Cheers, Roy.
>
> From: cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu
> [mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu] On Behalf Of Benno
> Blumenthal Sent: 15 December 2010 22:23
> To: Bryan Lawrence
> Cc: John Graybeal; cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu; Steve Hankin
> Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Web reference to a standard name?
>
> I was hoping that this conversation would end on Bryan's statement or
> thereabouts Actually, I think we really want:
>
> http://cfconventions.org/something
>
> (We own cfconventions.org<http://cfconventions.org/>, so we can point
> it where we want!)
>
> And I would like in 2011 to have settled on a permanent answer to
> that question!
>
> to which I would like to add Amen! (but I did not want any more
> e-mails)
>
> It is, after all, a pithy answer to the original question.
>
> But it was not to be. So now I try to fix the confusion I created
> earlier, and add my point-of-view to what followed.
>
> First of all, we can establish a set of URIs for the standard_name
> vocabulary without establishing a service, as nice as a service
> might be. Two separate questions.
>
> Secondly, the two sets of SKOS documents are significantly different,
> and both are missing the essential connection to CF that was in the
> original MMI construction (my earlier misunderstood point), namely
>
> cfsns:standard_name
>
> a property that connects the concept to the string that appears in a
> dataset documented according to the CF convention.
>
> skos:prefLabel is not good enough, because it does not mean that in
> theory (it is a display label). On a practical note,
> skos:prefLabel is the natural place for language translation, or
> even getting rid of the _, in which case it will be multivalued with
> each label tagged by a different language. I think. And BODC
> serves other vocabularies that have skos:prefLabel that are not
> cf:standard_names. And we do not want to create the situation where
> skos:prefLabel has this additional meaning when served from this
> particular url on this particular server.
>
> This is not saying SKOS is a bad thing, in fact BODC has
> SKOS-relations between standard_names that do not even exist
> elsewhere, but neither of these representations is complete enough
> to connote standard_names. So like all representations, they are
> partial. We should be mapping between them, not picking a victor.
> Someone needs to serve the mapping. And CF needs to serve the
> mapping between URIs and attribute strings. *That* is the standard.
>
> And then there is something I really do not understand. Both BODC
> and MMI have versioning in the terms, very good for a vocabulary
> maintenance point of view. But CF does not have versioning on the
> standard_name attributes in a file. So all the standard_name s that
> have the same string representation in CF attributes have to be the
> same in the fundamental sense that given a dataset with a
> standard_name tag, it has to map to all the URIs-with-version that
> have that standard_name tag. So isn't carefully versioning the
> terms just creating a mess in URI space? If you are going to
> version whole sets, aren't you obligated to map between versions so
> that we can figure out which terms have not really changed? I
> understand that if one is picking one-from-a-set and you change the
> set, you could change the pick, but we cannot really afford that,
> since old datasets are not getting relabeled and we cannot find the
> version, anyway. If we do version standard_name values, than
> shouldn't the URI's start from when that is required?
>
> Benno
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 4:46 AM, Bryan Lawrence
> <bryan.lawrence at stfc.ac.uk<mailto:bryan.lawrence at stfc.ac.uk>> wrote:
> Hi Folks
>
> I have to declare a preference to pointing to the BODC copy as the
> primary copy since we've built our CF vocab management tooling to
> ingest new vocab members directly into their vocabuarly managment
> system - and if we have any problems, debugging them can be done on
> the same timezone.
>
> Cheers
> Bryan
>
> > Ditto! Implementing what is suggested would be around 20 lines of
> > code. We've done the same for SeaDataNet to get their vocabs
> > within their namespace such as
> > http://www.seadatanet.org/urnurl/SDN:P021::TEMP
> >
> > Cheers, Roy.
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From:
> > cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.uc
> > ar.edu>
> > [cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.u
> > car.edu>] On Behalf Of John Graybeal
> > [jbgraybeal at mindspring.com<mailto:jbgraybeal at mindspring.com>]
> > Sent: 14 December 2010 17:56 To: Steve Hankin
> > Cc: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Web reference to a standard name?
> >
> > In theory, MMI can support that approach (redirecting
> > cfconventions.org<http://cfconventions.org>, ideally
> > transparently). (That is, I worked it out in my head once.
> > Haven't actually tried it in practice. I *think* it's "just a
> > simple matter of programming". ;->) I think that's the best
> > combination to support both appropriate branding and the kind of
> > support a "full time dedicated" repository can give. Roy's server
> > perhaps the same. (But not both at once!)
> >
> > Just to be crystal clear, the places where you have '16' could also
> > have 'current' (if I understand correctly what Roy was saying about
> > their server), and the mmisw one could also be served with a
> > particular version ID (analogous to the NERC example).
> >
> > If there is someone on the CF (or other) team that wants to play
> > with us on the 'simple matter of programming' part, that would be
> > a collaboration we'd be happy to encourage.
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Dec 14, 2010, at 08:16, Steve Hankin wrote:
> > > I second that thought.
> > >
> > > On 12/14/2010 3:12 AM, Bryan Lawrence wrote:
> > >> Hi Dom
> > >>
> > >> Actually, I think we really want:
> > >>
> > >> http://cfconventions.org/something
> > >>
> > >> (We own cfconventions.org<http://cfconventions.org>, so we can
> > >> point it where we want!)
> > >>
> > >> And I would like in 2011 to have settled on a permanent answer
> > >> to that question!
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> Bryan
> > >>
> > >>> Thanks all,
> > >>>
> > >>> Interesting to see the new MMI ontology work.
> > >>> I take from this discussion then that there is not currently a
> > >>> CF 'blessed' method to reference a term?
> > >>>
> > >>> E.g. for air_temperature I can choose from any of these:
> > >>>
> > >>> http://mmisw.org/ont/cf/parameter/air_temperature
> > >>> http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/term/P071/16/CFSN0023
> > >>> http://cf-pcmdi.llnl.gov/documents/cf-standard-names/standard-n
> > >>> am e-ta ble/16/cf-standard-name-table.html#air_temperature
> > >>> plus:
> > >>> http://cf-pcmdi.llnl.gov/documents/cf-standard-names/standard-
> > >>> na me-ta ble/16/cf-standard-name-table.xml
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>> Dom
> > >>>
> > >>> On 14/12/10 08:18, Lowry, Roy K. wrote:
> > >>>> Dear All,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Working to find a way of harmonising the two sources of
> > >>>> web-served Standard Names is on by 'To-Do' list for next year
> > >>>> (part of an issue list fed into the NETMAR project by John G.)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers, Roy.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> *From:*
> > >>>> cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at c
> > >>>> gd.ucar.edu>
> > >>>> [mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata-b
> > >>>> ounces at cgd.ucar.edu>] *On Behalf Of *John Graybeal *Sent:* 13
> > >>>> December 2010 22:28
> > >>>> *To:* Benno Blumenthal
> > >>>> *Cc:*
> > >>>> cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [CF-metadata] Web reference to a standard
> > >>>> name?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A minor clarification as to how MMI is doing things:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Benno, all,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Dec 13, 2010, at 07:25, Benno Blumenthal wrote:
> > >>>> We have tried to get standard URIs for CF concepts, but
> > >>>> the effort bogged down.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As for standard names, MMI established a set of URIs at
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://marinemetadata.org/cf
> > >>>>
> > >>>> but has not been keeping up to date.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks for the mention. This is our older URL, sorry; we are
> > >>>> now maintaining CF standard names in our ontology repository,
> > >>>> using resolvable URLs. [1]
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There was a period when MMI was not keeping up to date with CF
> > >>>> changes, but in the recent past we have been continuously
> > >>>> updating the SKOS ontology for the parameter names at the site
> > >>>> Carlos mentioned [1] (We will forward the misleading /cf URL
> > >>>> above, or fix it to make clear in some other way the current
> > >>>> status; thanks for calling that out.)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As with Roy's handling, we provide URLs both for the current
> > >>>> version at the reference URL, and for individual releases of
> > >>>> the vocabulary.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> John
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [1] http://mmisw.org/ont/cf/parameter
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I have written a XSL transform at
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/ontologies/xslt/.cfsn2rdf.xsl
> > >>>>
> > >>>> that can be applied to
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://cf-pcmdi.llnl.gov/documents/cf-standard-names/standard-
> > >>>> na me- table/16/cf-standard-name-table.xml
> > >>>>
> > >>>> to generate an up-to-date version, e.g.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> xsltproc
> > >>>> http://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/ontologies/xslt/.cfsn2rdf.xsl
> > >>>> http://cf-pcmdi.llnl.gov/documents/cf-standard-names/standard-
> > >>>> na me -table/16/cf-standard-name-table.xml
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On the other hand, Roy has created opaque URIs for standard
> > >>>> names at
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/list/P07/9 contains all the
> > >>>> Standard Names that have ever been published, including names
> > >>>> that have been aliased
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/list/P071/9 contains the Standard
> > >>>> Names that are currently valid (i.e. those that have not been
> > >>>> deprecated through aliasing)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/list/P072/9 contains the Standard
> > >>>> Names that have been deprecated through aliasing
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The mapping between deprecates and their replacement aliases
> > >>>> my be obtained through the following API call
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/axis2/services/vocab/getMap?subjec
> > >>>> tL ist
> > >>>> =http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/list/P072/current&predicate=255&o
> > >>>> b ject
> > >>>> List=http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/list/P071/current&inference=f
> > >>>> a lse
> > >>>> <http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/axis2/services/vocab/getMap?subje
> > >>>> c tLi
> > >>>> st=http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/list/P072/current&predicate=255
> > >>>> & obje
> > >>>> ctList=http://vocab.ndg.nerc.ac.uk/list/P071/current&inference
> > >>>> = fals e>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> he changes them with each version, so it is both more
> > >>>> definitive and harder to use. It is also pure SKOS, so one
> > >>>> needs to add structure to actually connect it with a
> > >>>> CF-described dataset. I plan to write out a map between the
> > >>>> two, so that I can use his relationships between CF
> > >>>> standard_names, but I do not have it yet.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Additional information and ontologies describing the CF
> > >>>> structure both as attributes and conceptually are available at
> > >>>> http://iridl.ldeo.columbia.edu/ontologies/, including the
> > >>>> connections between the standard_name ontologies and the CF
> > >>>> structure.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Benno
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Dominic Lowe
> > >>>> <dominic.lowe at stfc.ac.uk<mailto:dominic.lowe at stfc.ac.uk>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
<mailto:dominic.lowe at stfc.ac.uk<mailto:dominic.lowe at stfc.ac.uk>>>
wrote:
> > >>>> > Hello all,
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > What's the current CF recommended scheme for referencing a
> > >>>> > standard
> > >>>>
> > >>>> name on
> > >>>>
> > >>>> > the web? (either by URL or URN).
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > I know about the vocab server and the xml/html online
> > >>>> > versions and could choose to use URLs to point to items in
> > >>>> > any of these but is there a definitive pattern that should
> > >>>> > be used? (or at least a best practice that should be
> > >>>> > encouraged?).
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Much appreciated,
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Dominic
> > >>>> > --
> > >>>> > Scanned by iCritical.
> > >>>> > _______________________________________________
> > >>>> > CF-metadata mailing list
> > >>>> > CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu><
> > >>>> > mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.uca
> > >>>> > r.edu>>
> > >>>> > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Dr. M. Benno Blumenthal
> > >>>> benno at iri.columbia.edu<mailto:benno at iri.columbia.edu>
> > >>>> <mailto:benno at iri.columbia.edu<mailto:benno at iri.columbia.edu>
> > >>>> > International Research Institute for climate and society The
> > >>>> Earth Institute at Columbia University
> > >>>> Lamont Campus, Palisades NY 10964-8000 (845) 680-4450
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> CF-metadata mailing list
> > >>>> CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu><mail
> > >>>> to:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>>
> > >>>> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
> > >>>>
> > >>>> John
> > >>>> Graybeal<mailto:jgraybeal at ucsd.edu<mailto:jgraybeal at ucsd.edu>
> > >>>> >
> > >>>>
> > >>>> phone: 858-534-2162
> > >>>>
> > >>>> System Development Manager
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ocean Observatories Initiative Cyberinfrastructure Project:
> > >>>> http://ci.oceanobservatories.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Marine Metadata Interoperability Project:
> > >>>> http://marinemetadata.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only.
> > >>>> NERC is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the
> > >>>> contents of this email and any reply you make may be disclosed
> > >>>> by NERC unless it is exempt from release under the Act. Any
> > >>>> material supplied to NERC may be stored in an electronic
> > >>>> records management system.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> CF-metadata mailing list
> > >>>> CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> > >>>> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Bryan Lawrence
> > >> Director of Environmental Archival and Associated Research
> > >> (NCAS/British Atmospheric Data Centre and NCEO/NERC NEODC)
> > >> STFC, Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
> > >> Phone +44 1235 445012; Fax ... 5848;
> > >> Web:
> > >> home.badc.rl.ac.uk/lawrence<http://home.badc.rl.ac.uk/lawrence>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> CF-metadata mailing list
> > >> CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> > >> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > CF-metadata mailing list
> > > CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> > > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
> >
> > John Graybeal
> > <mailto:jgraybeal at ucsd.edu<mailto:jgraybeal at ucsd.edu>> phone:
> > 858-534-2162
> > System Development Manager
> > Ocean Observatories Initiative Cyberinfrastructure Project:
> > http://ci.oceanobservatories.org Marine Metadata Interoperability
> > Project: http://marinemetadata.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > CF-metadata mailing list
> > CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
> > _______________________________________________
> > CF-metadata mailing list
> > CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> > http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
>
> --
> Bryan Lawrence
> Director of Environmental Archival and Associated Research
> (NCAS/British Atmospheric Data Centre and NCEO/NERC NEODC)
> STFC, Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
> Phone +44 1235 445012; Fax ... 5848;
> Web: home.badc.rl.ac.uk/lawrence<http://home.badc.rl.ac.uk/lawrence>
> _______________________________________________
> CF-metadata mailing list
> CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
> http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. M. Benno Blumenthal
> benno at iri.columbia.edu<mailto:benno at iri.columbia.edu> International
> Research Institute for climate and society
> The Earth Institute at Columbia University
> Lamont Campus, Palisades NY 10964-8000 (845) 680-4450
--
Bryan Lawrence
Director of Environmental Archival and Associated Research
(NCAS/British Atmospheric Data Centre and NCEO/NERC NEODC)
STFC, Rutherford Appleton Laboratory
Phone +44 1235 445012; Fax ... 5848;
Web: home.badc.rl.ac.uk/lawrence
Received on Thu Dec 16 2010 - 08:12:59 GMT
