Hello John, others,
Thanks for those comments. I can see the value of maintaining consistency and being careful about changing things which have worked well for a long time, but I would rather not go back to the people who find the existing terminology confusing (these are people who have specifically commented on the standard name area_fraction) and tell them that we are not changing it because it has always been like that. I'd rather have a more positive message that might encourage them to appreciate the value of CF.
I'm not sure if this is true, but it looks to me as though the formulation "area_fraction" owes something to "volume_fraction", "mass_fraction" and "mole_fraction", all of which follow wide spread usage in the atmospheric and oceanographic science communities. People who use mass and volume fractions appear to be accustomed to having these expressed as percentages outside CF, so it is no surprise to find this done in CF. For "area_fraction" we have a slightly different situation: the term doesn't arise from expressions used in the land surface science communities, rather it is a semantic structure being imposed on them. Does anyone now if this interpretation is correct (i.e. that we use "area_fraction" rather than something which might be more familiar for land surface scientists such as "area_cover" in order to maintain consistency with mass, volume and mole fractions)?
regards,
Martin
________________________________
From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of John Graybeal <jbgraybeal at mindspring.com>
Sent: 01 February 2019 07:12
To: Jim Biard
Cc: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu
Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Putting the units in a CF standard name: area_fraction
Martin,
I like your definition.
While there is a case for renaming the standard name, it?s long-time use, validity, and the fact only sophisticated data managers use standard names (and most data users just look primarily at variable names) says to me we should keep the existing standard names with fraction.
John
On Jan 31, 2019, at 08:07, Jim Biard <jbiard at cicsnc.org<mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>> wrote:
Hi.
I understand that concern, but it has always been true that the units for a quantity identified by a standard name only has to be convertible using UDUNITS from the canonical units specified in the definition for that standard name. So percent is, by definition, valid for a quantity with units of '1'. As you can see below:
> udunits2
You have: 1
You want: percent
1 = 100 percent
x/percent = 100*(x/)
I guess I don't see the need for guidance here.
Grace and peace,
Jim
On 1/31/19 10:51 AM, Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC wrote:
Dear Jonathan,
we could certainly take that approach, though the definitions are not always accessible to people looking at the standard name, so they do not compensate for ambiguity in the name itself.
The current text '"Area fraction" means the fraction of horizontal area.' could be replaced with
"Area Fraction" is a dimensionless number representing a relative or proportional area. It may be expressed as a fraction, percentage or any other unit that conforms to "1". It is evaluated as the area of interest divided by the grid cell area, scaled for the units chosen.
I still feel that there is a case for changing the name to, for example, "relative_area" in order to reduce confusion caused by people who assume that a fraction is a quantity that does not have units,
regards,
Martin
________________________________
From: CF-metadata <cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu><mailto:cf-metadata-bounces at cgd.ucar.edu> on behalf of Jonathan Gregory <j.m.gregory at reading.ac.uk><mailto:j.m.gregory at reading.ac.uk>
Sent: 31 January 2019 13:20:24
To: cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
Subject: [CF-metadata] Putting the units in a CF standard name: area_fraction
Dear Martin
I'd rather we retained "fraction" in the standard name, because it's always
been there, it's used in other contexts in a consistent way, and there isn't
anything actually incorrect with it, as you say. Could we instead add a note
to the definitions pointing out that percent is acceptable as a unit for them?
Best wishes
Jonathan
----- Forwarded message from Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC <martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk><mailto:martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk> -----
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 22:40:12 +0000
From: Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC <martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk><mailto:martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk>
To: Steven Emmerson <emmerson at ucar.edu><mailto:emmerson at ucar.edu>
Cc: "CF-metadata (cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>)" <cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu><mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Putting the units in a CF standard name:
area_fraction
Hi Steve,
The issue is more that CF allows more freedom in the choice of units than many people expect from a "fraction".
A second problem, I think the problem is that I didn't explain the issue clearly. In the CMIP data request we are specifying that variables with standard name "area_fraction" should be given as percentages. This is allowed by the CF convention: an "area_fraction" can be 0.5 or 50%. The reason that percentages are being used is because "area_fraction" is being used like the proportion of land covered in grass, and people are used to having these as percentages rather than fractions. It is all perfectly correct as far as the convention goes, but people often interpret the use of "area_fraction" for a percentage as an error.
Given that we have the framework of allowing flexibility in the choice of units, I feel it would be better to avoid having the term "fraction" in the standard name, given that it is often interpreted as implying a specific choice for the units.
regards,
Martin
________________________________
From: Steven Emmerson <emmerson at ucar.edu><mailto:emmerson at ucar.edu>
Sent: 30 January 2019 21:37
To: Juckes, Martin (STFC,RAL,RALSP)
Cc: CF-metadata (cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:cf-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>)
Subject: Re: [CF-metadata] Putting the units in a CF standard name: area_fraction
On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 12:54 PM Martin Juckes - UKRI STFC <martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk<mailto:martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk><mailto:martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk><mailto:martin.juckes at stfc.ac.uk>> wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand your comment. When I search for "fraction" in the NIST document I find it defined as being a ratio, which is inconsistent with the current CF usage. The CF standard name concept "area_fraction" is not what NIST or others understand as a "fraction". I'm suggesting a change to remove this inconsistency.
Unless we're talking past one another, I'll have to disagree. The NIST unit for "mass fraction" is "1" -- even though it's a ratio. A fraction can be represented many ways. "1:2", "1/2", and "0.5" all represent the same fraction, for example.
Does the CF convention require a particular representation for a fraction?
Regards,
Steve Emmerson
_______________________________________________
CF-metadata mailing list
CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
----- End forwarded message -----
_______________________________________________
CF-metadata mailing list
CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
_______________________________________________
CF-metadata mailing list
CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
--
[CICS-NC] <http://www.cicsnc.org/> Visit us on
Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/cicsnc> Jim Biard
Research Scholar
Cooperative Institute for Climate and Satellites NC <http://cicsnc.org/>
North Carolina State University <http://ncsu.edu/>
NOAA National Centers for Environmental Information <http://ncdc.noaa.gov/>
formerly NOAA?s National Climatic Data Center
151 Patton Ave, Asheville, NC 28801
e: jbiard at cicsnc.org<mailto:jbiard at cicsnc.org>
o: +1 828 271 4900
Connect with us on Facebook for climate<https://www.facebook.com/NOAANCEIclimate> and ocean and geophysics<https://www.facebook.com/NOAANCEIoceangeo> information, and follow us on Twitter at _at_NOAANCEIclimate<https://twitter.com/NOAANCEIclimate> and @NOAANCEIocngeo<https://twitter.com/NOAANCEIocngeo>.
_______________________________________________
CF-metadata mailing list
CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu<mailto:CF-metadata at cgd.ucar.edu>
http://mailman.cgd.ucar.edu/mailman/listinfo/cf-metadata
Received on Wed Feb 06 2019 - 05:16:06 GMT
